Why Saying “No” Isn’t Enough with Maggie Patterson

Rachel Smith: Hello and welcome to The Content Byte, a podcast for freelancers who use their words to make money. I’m Rachel, a freelance journalist, copywriter, and content producer. I’m also the founder of Rachel’s List, a jobs board and community for Australian writers and other creatives. 

Lynne Testoni: I’m Lynne! I’m a journalist and content writer as well. Rachel and I are your weekly co-hosts, and every week we bring you all kinds of tips, tricks, and some fabulous guests to help you make the most of your freelance business.

Hey Rach, how are things?

Rachel: Yes, very good. I think it has been a tricky couple of weeks with different client situations though, which is why I’m very interested in our discussion today. It’s something all freelancers need to tune into. 

Lynne: I think you’re right. I think it’s a common problem, particularly of people who are just starting out freelancing on those first few years because we are talking to Maggie from BS Free Business. Love the name and about how boundaries are a business strategy and it’s something you and I see freelancers struggle with a lot. It’s a really big issue. 

Rachel: I think it takes time to learn how to set really strong boundaries when you work for yourself. Sometimes years. I’ll introduce Maggie and we’ll get started. 

Lynne: Great. 

Rachel: Maggie Patterson is the creator of BS Free Business and the author of Staying Solo. With 20 years of experience as a successful entrepreneur and client services, Maggie helps service business owners build what she proudly calls a boring business – strategically small, sustainable, and designed to fit their lifestyle without the constant hustle.

A podcaster and writer, Maggie is a vocal advocate for humane business practices, rooted in respect, empathy, and trust. She also hosts two podcasts, Staying Solo and Confessions of a Micro Agency Owner, and she co-hosts the Consumer Advocacy Podcast Duped: The Dark Side of Online Business. 

Welcome, Maggie!

Lynne: Welcome!

Maggie: As everyone can see, I have a podcast problem for starters and when I’m not doing my own podcast, I like to be on everyone else’s podcast. So yes, it’s my preferred medium apparently.  

Rachel: Three podcasts is really a commitment. I’m impressed. 

Lynne: Just one is enough for us, I think.  

Rachel: Absolutely. Well, so much to discuss after that bio. I love your no bullshit approach, and I would love to hear how your business and boundaries evolved. Are you a reformed pushover yourself? 

Maggie: I wouldn’t say I am a reformed pushover, but when I started freelancing, I literally had a baby and I was like, I don’t want to go back to my agency job. I was doing a lot of things where I was just happy to be getting paid. 

Lynne: We all start off like that. 

Maggie: Exactly and I was really just excited by clients and thankfully, because I had the agency background, I did have an understanding of how those client relationships should function to some degree. I tend to have a fairly strong personality, but at the same time, when your client relationships are tied to your income and you need to pay your bills, pushing back can be really, really challenging. And how do you do this in a way that’s not going to damage the relationship? How are you going to do this in a way that works for everybody? It’s not just you being seen as like saying no constantly to someone who’s actually paying you for your services. 

Lynne: Yes, it’s tricky. You’ve mentioned to us that you think freelancers often told to set boundaries. It’s all that self-care stuff, which I’ve never been. The self-care thing is a whole other story. But that’s not what it means. Talk us through that misconception. 

Maggie: You know, boundaries are really interesting because we often will think of it as well, I don’t do this, or I don’t offer this service. We think of it in these kinds of abstract ways, or we think of it as, I need to take a vacation or I need to go get my nails done, or whatever it is. When really boundaries are the foundation of a really healthy working relationship. You think about your personal relationships. You have boundaries in how you communicate with your partner, your family, your friends. My friends know, don’t just call me because I’m not going to pick up and if you do call me or text me and say it’s urgent, I’m literally going to think someone is on their way to another realm. So having those same boundaries with your clients is a really healthy way to define those rules of engagement. When we think of boundaries, we often think of them as being bad or we’re not being. Especially if you’ve been socialised or raised as a woman, you’re probably engaged in people pleasing. You have a hard time saying no to things. So really thinking about it instead of it like, oh, I’m willing to care for myself and making it indulgent, it is actually a really healthy way to set how you are going to work together so everyone gets what they need from the relationship.  

Rachel: Let’s touch a bit more on that saying no thing because I think that is a learning curve for lots of freelancers and I personally am a work in progress on that one, even though I’ve been freelancing for over 25 years. So how can you shift how you think about boundaries if you’re a chronic Yes person? 

Maggie: Oh, and I will say, Rachel, I love that you brought up the fact that it is a work in progress even though I’ve been freelancing, running my own businesses for over 20 years, every so often something comes up and I’m like, oh, so this is not something we are going to try to strive for perfection with. We’re going to try to strive for progress. And if you’re someone who has challenges with saying no, I think a few things can really help.

Number one, defining what those rules of engagement, those boundaries are with how you work from clients from the onset. I literally write, these are office hours, we are closed these weeks of the year. You can expect response times around this. If you’re going to add more to the scope, it’ll be that.

So, including that in proposals, in contracts, in welcome packets, really making sure that people understand when they choose to work for you with you, that you are not going to be that person who’s going to have that quick turnaround the next day, or they can call you that morning and be like, hey, can you write that 2000 word article for tomorrow? That’s not how you’re going to do your best work and it’s not in their best interest either. So, setting them out from the onset is really, really important. The other thing I always have to remind people is that they are your boundaries and it’s your job to maintain them and not break them. I see a lot of people I work with do is they will say, I only respond between nine and four. Well, next thing you know, they’re sending an email at 11 pm and what have they just taught their client? They have now taught their client that they’re working at 11 pm and that it’s okay to contact them outside of working hours when we have this wonderful feature called send later in our email. Write the email when it works for you and schedule it for 8 am the next morning or within business hours. These are kind of the ways I need to work and sticking to them yourself and watching when you are slipping into that behaviour. As for the no part, my little trick for this for years was I never said no. I would say, you know what? That’s really interesting, here’s what I’m going to propose as an alternative. 

I was in the business of alternatives. I didn’t say no. I would say, you know what, that deadline is not actually going to result in a great end product, but what I can suggest instead and whatever would work for me better. And then it’s seen as helpful, strategic, accommodating, not just me being, no. 

Lynne: And that is easier. I think Rachel often talks about the yes and I quite like that. Yes and I can get it to you here. 

Rachel: Or yes, and I can get back to you then and so I’m not actually saying no. Also, I think you can become better at saying, I’ll get back to you on that, or I’ll get back to you in a couple of hours about that and actually stepping away from the request and thinking about it and checking your schedule. It can stop you falling into those black holes when you end up working weekends and all of that sort of stuff.

Maggie: I like that you mentioned taking some time because of the nature of communications and the access our clients have to us. We don’t have to answer the email. Don’t set those expectations and don’t do that to yourself. Just because you have your email open right now doesn’t mean you have to respond to them in this minute. Go take the time you need to really think it through. The other thing is recognising there are going to be a time on occasion where you do make an exception and when you make an exception, being very clear with the client that this is an exception. This can’t be a regular thing and if you notice you’re getting into a pattern with a client where you are constantly being asked to make exceptions, that’s a great conversation with the client in a really kind, helpful, thoughtful way to say, listen, it seems like you have a lot of last-minute requests. I want to be able to really accommodate you. Let’s shift this so we can get these assignments to me sooner. How can we make this better? I actually had just had this conversation with a client last week, and I continue to have these conversations. I’m seeing a lot of last-minute requests from so-and-so on your team, can we ensure that they include me on the first touch for the communication, so this doesn’t become an ongoing problem. It was just an ask, and it solved a problem really quickly. So, coming in and being like, how can we get creative, so everyone’s needs are being met and you are not in a position where you’re constantly running around at the last minute because that’s what creates resentment for our business, that’s what creates needless stress, and we start to dislike those clients. Even if they’ve been a really great client. You’re just like, oh, I’m so over you. 

Lynne: Definitely. 

Rachel: The ad-hoc client. 

Lynne: What are some of the biggest mistakes people make around boundaries and have there been some that you’ve made that taught you a good lesson?

Maggie: Honestly, the biggest one I see people being is too available. Let’s say you have three writing clients and one’s a bigger retainer, one’s a medium retainer, one’s like a smaller retainer. Why are you providing the smaller one with the same level of response time, flexibility, everything else that you’re providing to that higher one that tells me there’s a problem there. I think really looking at how do I set a service expectation based on all the conditions of how I want to work, and also if you pay me more money, are you going to pay me a rush fee or something like that? Alright, now we’re talking. But, providing for those things upfront and stating, there may be a rush fee, there might be a late fee, there might be a delay fee. Having those things in there gives you a point of conversation with the client versus being, I don’t know what to do.

Rachel: We mentioned earlier in the conversation, you were talking about how sometimes we set boundaries because of things that happen in our business and it kind of motivates us. What are some blunders that you see freelancers making? Then they think, oh God, I really need to put that in my TNC’s or in my proposal, or something like that. You just kind of start to build all those things in, but how could we sidestep having to do that?

Lynne: And make the mistakes? 

Maggie: Honestly, for anyone who’s doing creative work, limiting the number of revisions. 

Rachel: Okay. That’s interesting.

Maggie: With writing, I have a clause that’s like, we are going to do an outline. You’re going to approve the outline. After that, there’s one review for substantive edits and there’s one review for line edits. After that you are going to have, it’s now out of scope and that’s a different fee and we’re going to look at that. Looking at common scenarios that come up, do you often have a lot of legitimately urgent, last-minute things? Can that be a rush fee? One, I see a ton with my clients, and I say this probably at least once a week with people, do you have a rebooking or a delay fee in your contract because everyone starts a project with all the excitement in the world and then something derails it and what happens to you is that doesn’t impact the organisation, but it impacts you and your schedule and your capacity and your availability. And you’re like, wait a second. I have another project and having something to say if you’ve delayed this past Q1, I’m now rebooking for Q3, and that’s going to cost you extra. All of a sudden, they often can resolve the situation. So, a lot of times these things, these boundaries, these extra things you’re studying out, they’re actually just an incentive for the client to stick to what they’ve agreed to. 

Lynne: For me, I see boundaries as a really important way I’ve run my business. I think that because I’ve been doing this for a while, over 10 years, that I have set up boundaries and I think it’s quite personal too. What might stress me out, may not stress Rachel out. What sort of frameworks or processes should you set in place? Is it good to think about what stresses you out?

Maggie: I absolutely think anything that stresses you out, causes you anxiety and makes you want to set your business on fire, those are red flags for you to absolutely ensure you have covered up. Like I mentioned a few minutes ago, I do not want my clients to phone me unexpectedly, so I have it, hey, here’s how the best way to communicate me with me, and here’s how to get a timely response. Because those random phone calls – I used to get them in my early days of freelancing and I would get to the end of the day and be like, I haven’t done anything, now I’ve got to do this tonight. Looking for those first and foremost and then the other thing is understanding that, especially if you work with corporate clients or bigger organisations, their work culture might not be aligned with how you work so being very thoughtful about recognising. I’ve worked a lot with tech in my career. They work around the clock. Quite frankly, it’s pretty unhinged from my perspective. I’ve had to be very upfront of hey, I work normal business hours, I don’t work your tech hours and really being clear with them of what’s going to work. But I do think Lynne, going to your point of whatever is stressing you out the most, that is a sign that is something you need to be establishing a boundary around. You do not have to be in this constant state of bracing for what’s next coming in for a client. If email stresses you out, tell your clients I check my email at nine and four and then check your email at nine and four.

Lynne: So interesting. 

Rachel: I think in your pitch, you were talking to us about baking boundaries into your offers and in Australia we sometimes call that packages or whatever. I think that’s really interesting because we just had someone on the podcast, Nikita Morell, who’s a copywriter for architects. She has this thing called the pause clause. So, if a project stops for any reason and they want to pick it up three months later, or six months later, she charges them a fee to do that. Because then you’ve got to dig back into the research, and I thought that was just brilliant. So, I have put that into my contracts.

What are some other boundaries that you would recommend baking into your packages or your offers if you’re a freelancer?

Maggie: Depending on the type of work you do, if you’re doing writing, for example, with creative work again, revisions, ownership. Things like, you can’t come back to me three months later and ask for a revision. Once we’ve received final approval, it’s over. And a big one I have seen is definitely the delays. 

The other thing I have written in at different contracts is approvals. Who is responsible for approvals in the organisation? Who is the ultimate approver for them? I refer to it as like an other voices clause because especially with corporate clients. Sometimes my direct client is the VP of marketing, but then all of a sudden, the VP of strategy is involved and someone from project management and it’s like, I don’t know who my actual client is in that situation. So being clear on, in complex situations, who the actual approver is, can make a huge difference. 

Lynne: That’s interesting because I’m quite different. Almost all my work is for corporates, and I don’t mind that, because I find it less personal. I don’t work for small businesses because it is personal, and they keep changing their mind and I find that really stressful. If it’s just the legal department or the product department, I go, sure, I’ll do that. Because I don’t take it as personally and also, I charge them a lot more money.

Rachel: What about if you get the Google Doc and it’s got all the stakeholder comments and then there are more coming the next day and more coming the next day. That is the kind of thing where you’re like, how can I set a boundary around that? And it’s like all comments need to come at the same time, or I guess.

Maggie: Rachel, that is one of the most stressful things. You keep going in the document, you’re like, well, so and so said they did it well what about this one? 

Rachel: And they’re arguing in the comments. 

Maggie: Yes, and I love that Lynne said, I don’t mind if it goes to legal, great. I don’t mind if it goes to legal either because I’m not fighting with legal. But then product and marketing and strategy are having an argument and I’m like, figure it out. One thing I’ve done with the commenting thing is basically whoever my point of contact is, they’re responsible for communicating to me and my team to say, hey, you know what, now you’re ready to review. And if there’s things that I am looking at and there’s conflict, it’s going back to them to say you all need to go get on the same page because this is not a decision that me as the writer can make for you.

Rachel: So that’s a boundary in itself really, you know?

Maggie: Yes. 

Rachel: It’s back in your court sort of thing. 

Lynne: So, one of the things that I guess you’re talking about is there’s a lot here about onboarding. When you’re onboarding a new client or expanding scope or anything, you need to bake some of this into your processes. Do you have a process? Is it all about contracts or is it about the workflow? 

Maggie: It is literally, like I said earlier, it is in the proposal, it is in the contract, and then it’s also in a welcome document that I’m sending them right before our kick-off meeting. And in that kick-off meeting, I will say, did you look at the welcome document? Do you have any specific questions? This is so we’ll work well together, and I do like to say to them, is there anything I should know about working with you? And sometimes I’ll find out, oh, so and so on their team can be particular about Oxford comma usage or it might be the most random thing, but it’s something that’s going to make my life easier. And then they feel really heard. The other thing is to understand that when you work with clients for a really long time, sometimes you need to bake in points where we’re going to have a conversation about how we’re working together, and that’s going to include resetting or reestablishing or setting even new boundaries.

I have had one client for six plus years. I’ve been the constant on the marketing team in a lot of ways, and their team has changed. So, there’s constantly being that resetting process with them. And don’t be afraid to have those conversations with your clients because one of the things, I definitely know I struggled with this. I felt like I was in service, so I would not feel comfortable going to them directly and saying, you know what – this isn’t working, we’re both feeling frustrated here. Whereas a client really appreciates when you do that because so many service providers are unwilling to do that. And that says to them, I really value you and the relationship we have. How can we make this better for everybody involved? 

Rachel: I suppose it’s also really different if you are stuck in that order taker role and you move to a strategic advisor type role. It’s very different boundaries, isn’t it? Because you don’t have a lot of power in the other role, but suddenly you are giving them ideas and helping them come up with strategy.

Maggie: I think this is where, going back to the question around how are you baking them into packages. Being really clear on, especially with things that can feel very squishy, like strategy. If we’re doing a content strategy or we’re doing some sort of communication strategy, what does that look like? What are the deliverables? How many calls are we going to have? What is the process we’re going to go through? Communicating, all of that really helps you push back when they’re like, can we just have one more call? And you’re like, we’ve had 10 calls and go out nowhere, this strategy is going nowhere fast. Or really being able to identify you know what, we need to have calls with these three people and anything else is going to be out of scope. 

Rachel: It’s interesting because I think that some freelancers, you end up getting PTSD after really bad projects that have blown out or whatever. You just want to leave it all behind when actually you should probably sit down and go, right, what worked there and what didn’t, and outline all the steps. And then that’s how you start to create boundaries for future projects I suppose. You actually have to do that debrief in your own business.

Maggie: Yes, and I think anytime you have something that has gone off the rails, being willing to unpack it is critical. My lawyer, who I’ve worked with for years, she always knows when I pop up and I’m like, could we put a clause for this in the contract? She’s like, what happened? Over the years that’s been less and less and less, but there’s sometimes scenarios you could never dream of with a client that are going to come up, so being willing to unpack that and understand what was my role in that? Where was I unclear? Where did I not communicate this well and how can I ensure that I am able to avoid that situation in the future? Or at least have tools at my disposal to reshape what the direction things are going in. So not just blaming it on the client or blaming it on yourself, being like, where’s the shared responsibility? And then figuring out how to avoid that in the future is really important and sometimes that’s going to be an update to your welcome package. Sometimes it’s going to be fine tuning what goes in a package. Really looking at where are those possibilities where I can very strategically and thoughtfully shore up how I want to be working and the type of work I’m doing. 

Lynne: I do think it is good to pull yourself back because sometimes you know what you are offering, you know what you’re clear on, but it’s not always clear to somebody who’s a new client because it’s often really quite clear in your head. I had a recent wonderful experience where I had a project derail for something that was external to both me and the client. And the client just came back to me and said, we’re not going to go with this because of this reason, but we are going to pay you anyway for the first one. And I thought, how nice is that? And also, now I think because they offered to do that, if that ever happened in a real thing, I’m much more inclined to say, that’s fine, this happens, but I think I need to invoice you now for that first one because I set up my schedule and that was actually a positive thing from a client. It’s not always a negative thing. 

Maggie: I love that you use that example, Lynne, because a great client, the clients we want to work with for years, they’re going to be looking out for you as much as you are looking out for them and that says a lot about the relationship. Having a client that understands your time is valuable, that they are paying for it, and that this is a business relationship and there’s that respect and trust there. That is worth its weight in gold, and I would rather have four clients like that than a million clients who were a nightmare. 

Lynne: Yes, exactly.

Rachel: It’s so true. I know you are very big on creating businesses that work for you, and something that freelancers might struggle with is structuring their schedule. They can have days that fritter off into all different directions. You feel like you’ve got nothing done. How can you lose control of your own schedule and then actually rein it in and make sure it’s working for you long term? 

Maggie: This is something I write a lot about in my book, Staying Solo, because I feel like 80% of my clients have shown up and they’re like, it’s chaos. I’m really good at what I do. I’m getting paid really well, but I don’t feel like I have control of my day and my calendar. So, things like, when am I communicating with clients? When am I working on client deliverables? And I know when you’re a creative, it can be like, but I’m not inspired. You can still set some structures in place and understand, I’m not really going to be feeling like doing client meetings on Monday, my brain is not there. So really mapping things to how you like to work, the type of schedule, the best ways you’re going to communicate. For me, I do my best writing in the evening.

If I know I’m going to be doing a big writing project, I might not start work until 1 pm that day, because I know that between six and ten, that’s when all the creative magic is going to show up. So being flexible, but also having some guardrails for yourself, so that feels like you are making meaningful progress. And, also understanding that not every hour of every single minute of every workday needs to be consumed with client work. There needs to be time for you to charge yourself up creatively, to do research on your industry, to do your marketing, to do your operations work. A lot of people are like, I want to work 30 hours a week, and then every 30 hours, every minute is dedicated to their clients. So, really looking at how can I do this in a way that’s going to work better for me? And maybe you’re going to 20 hours of client work and 10 hours of working on your own business. 

Rachel: It’s funny you say that, because in one of my businesses, Rachel’s List, I’ve got a VA, and she has a work on her business day on Wednesday, so she’s not with me on that day. I used to think, oh, that’s a bit annoying. Okay, I have to be the VA on Wednesdays. But now I just think it’s such a smart thing that she does. She dedicates that whole day to things like, what do I need to put in my contracts because that project went awry, or what do I need to work on in terms of my marketing that I often forget to do or whatever, and I don’t do that. I feel like my week is structured. Well with the podcast, Lynne, we structure it so that we are only really recording on Monday to Wednesday because for reasons that for both of us, we can’t really record on Thursdays and Fridays. We have that structure in place, but I’m starting to think more about ways that I can structure my calendar better and I’ve been freelancing for 25 years.

Maggie: Here’s the thing, it’s going to change over time. When I had little kids, I was at my desk at 9 am. My son is in university now. I don’t have to wrangle anybody out of the house and try to get them to put on pants. So, I have the flexibility to be like, you know what? I’m going to go for a long bike ride, or I’m going to the pool, and I schedule my days. Most of my calls are in the afternoon and I’m not starting off early. But in a different season, that’s going to change. And I think part of that is what are there going to be those ebbs and flows based on what you need personally, what’s going on in your life, how your energy is, all those factors, and being constantly in a state of inquiry to be like, interesting, this isn’t working for me the way it used to.

Lynne: I think that’s one of the things that people forget as a freelancer, it’s your business, you make it work for you and how it is. I’m the opposite because I start work at seven and I get up and do Pilates at six and then I start work at seven. And that’s important to me. But I don’t do much after three or four in the afternoon because I’m done and that makes my life a lot easier. When I used to get into the office when I had an office job early and nobody would notice because nobody else did. But then everyone would notice when I left at four or five. And so now I love the fact that I’m not answerable to anyone. It’s just me. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Maggie: Rachel, the thing you said about your VA taking that day off – this was one of the most mind-blowing things someone said to me about ten years ago. I was like, what do you mean – I can do that? And what she said to me at the time, and it was just life changing. She said, you don’t have to tell everybody that’s what you’re doing. You just build your schedule around that, and you don’t have to announce it to the world. Now, when I moved to a four-day work week, three or four years ago, I did announce it to the world and every single one of my clients was like, ugh, that’s amazing. I wish I was self-employed. 

Rachel: She does announce it to everybody because it’s a set day and there is no client work happening that day and it’s really this dedicated business day. It’s actually made me think I need to do that. I need to have a dedicated work on the business day, which I don’t have.

Lynne: But see, I don’t tell anybody. I do a lot of work because I travel to Perth a lot, which is a two-to-three-hour time difference, and nobody knows that I’m there. I love that it’s just there and it’s nobody’s business and I just do it. I just adapt. Work is normal. Nobody needs to know where I am. I quite like that. 

But I love, one of the things about a lot of your comms is about having a boring business. I love it when business is boring, and it just works. Is that what you mean? Or what does it look like in practice? 

Maggie: I mean, boring, not like you’re bored. I mean, boring, like predictable and profitable, and quite frankly, peaceful because where I see so many freelancers struggling is it’s around things like boundaries that are fixable, but this is what sends them back into the arms of a corporate job they don’t really want because they weren’t able to figure this out. So how can we create a business that has no drama? We can show up, we can do work, we can enjoy with people we enjoy. Make a living and like have the space to do the things we plan to do when we started the business. So much of what we see out there when it comes to starting a business is very, I call it the entrepreneurial prosperity gospel. It’s about making a gajillion dollars and being on the beach and that’s not actually the reality for most people. The reality is most people are like, hey, I replaced my salary. I work less. I don’t have to commute. I can go do what I want to do, and if I want to go kayaking at three o’clock, I can. And that is a really wonderful place to be, and I want people to be able to take advantage of that. 

Rachel: What do you mean? Because you also talk on your website about how we can easily overcomplicate our businesses. What do you mean by that? And how do you move to more of a simplifying phase?

Maggie: Ooh, this is such a good one. So many people, what happens is two things. They’re freelancing and they have end up having way too many offers because they’re trying to be everything to everyone. If I’m a writer and I’m amazing at long form white papers and research papers. Do that. You don’t have to have 14 different packages for everybody, narrow that focus so you can be really good at something you actually enjoy, and you don’t have to add all the things. I know it’s very popular to add all the bells and whistles, but ultimately at the end of the day, my agency was built on a few very specific blogs, case studies, white papers. Not exciting. We don’t do social content, we don’t do much else, but that is the bread and butter of it. The other thing a lot of freelancers fall into is romanticising different business models, like digital products, becoming the coach, big group programs and what people don’t realise is the people who are teaching you to do those things are selling you products for those. So, they make it sound really, really, really easy. I’m not saying it’s not a terrible thing. I have been able to make that pivot very slowly over ten years to doing more and more of that. But it has taken a lot of marketing, a lot of effort, a lot of skill, and a lot of patience. So, I think if you’re like, oh, I’m just going to drop this digital product and get rich, no one’s talking about the realities of building that type of audience and how if you’re selling a $47 product, it doesn’t add up the same way as a big corporate retainer does.  

Rachel: That’s so true. 

Lynne: Do you have some favourite must have systems to get more strategic sustainable businesses?

Maggie: There’s a few things I absolutely love. Number one, having a really robust onboarding process. So, thinking through that first ninety to a hundred days for a client. And this is much easier to do when you have a very small number. I specialise in white papers and research papers. What does my process look like? Really help the client envision how you’re working together to reduce the ‘what about’ factor, right? Because last thing, nobody likes their client coming to them and going, well, what about this? So, what about that? Make them feel safe and secure and be as communicative and supportive and helpful as you were in the sales process, because I feel like we’re a lot of people, they’re great on the sales side and then once people get in, the experience doesn’t match. You want to make sure that first ninety to a hundred days for your client is really great. And then past that, having a regular cadence to your communications for each client. When am I sending reports? When am I sending invoices? When am I checking in on things? When do we have calls? The more predictable that is, the more your client is going to trust you. A lot of people struggle with it being predictable because it feels boring, but if you want less drama, that’s the way to do it. Be like clockwork. Do what you say you’re going to do when you’re going to do it as much as you can. Obviously set that up in a way that’s going to work for you, but knowing, I meet with the client every second Wednesday, I send the report on the third business day of the month. That level of predictability helps you stand out with your clients and also is a great way to get repeat clients and also ongoing work or scope expansion because you are the person they can trust in a stable of other freelancers that maybe aren’t that great.

Rachel: That was going to be one of my questions actually. If you design the right business and you have those systems in place and you dedicate time to doing the onboarding that covers the first ninety days. Have you found for you, that does lead to you attracting better clients and being able to charge more because all those bits are in place and you’re not flying by the seat of your pants all the time?

Maggie: Yes. Because what happens when a client feels really safe and secure and the project goes smoothly, there wasn’t any hiccups. They trust you. You’re now getting follow on business. They’re referring you to their other people, other departments, other friends they have in the industry.

When we talk about a business built on referrals, we’re thinking of that referral from a marketing point of view, but how are we doing that with the client experience and the end result we’re delivering the clients so that they’re willing to do a case study, they’re willing to do a testimonial. They will sing your praises to anyone who will listen. They’re the person when someone says on LinkedIn, oh, I’m looking for this. They’re tagging you in, they’re being your champion and your advocate. 

Rachel: And your unpaid sales team. 

Maggie: Exactly. Because as a freelancer, you don’t have a lot of time, energy, and resources for marketing. So do a really good job with your client work so that it can work for you on the backend. 

Rachel: I love that. 

Lynne: Obviously you are in Ottawa, in Canada, so it might be different there, but it has been a tough couple of years. I think here in Australia and probably in Canada, it’s been a bit easier than if you’re in the States. But what’s working for you in bringing in work and new clients? 

Maggie: I will say it’s a few things. It’s always been referrals and recommendations. As long as I’ve been doing work, that has always been my bread and butter. The other thing that’s kind of interesting, and I’ve been talking a lot about this lately is, it has been a really challenging year for most people, especially in the US. But we have to recognise that with these geopolitical things going on, which we all know we don’t need to get in the nuts and bolts of that. But with all of that going on, the people we work with probably have less capacity. They’re concerned about budgets. There’s something they’re calling a trust recession going on. So, people are slower to act. So how can you look at your business and be like, okay, I know these factors are here. How do I adapt what I’m doing? Maybe I need to build some trust upfront. So instead of getting into a big retainer with a client, I’m going to have a quick win short term, 30 day offer we can do with them, so they really start to trust me. So, ensuring that you’re making these small resets in your business? 

Sometimes with clients, I see a lot of times it’s positioning. They’ve always been driven by referrals, and they’ve always been driven these recommendations and maybe that’s not happening as fast, so they need to do a better job with the ones that are coming in of gaining their trust. Are you positioned correctly? Are you articulating your expertise? Do they understand the process? Do you have testimonials? Do you have case studies? Things that seem really, really basic, but when you’re busy they totally get overlooked and now they really, really matter. Your credibility and your ability to really get their trust from the second they hit your website, or they check you out on social media is more critical than ever. 

Rachel: That’s so true. Well, something we do ask all our guests about is their favourite tools or apps or services. What would you be lost without in your work?

 Maggie: I’m a big Notion person. 

Rachel: We hear that all the time. Neither of us use it. 

Lynne: But it’s one of the most common tools that people mention. 

Maggie: It’s not a super exciting for a lot of people, but it’s worked really well for us, within my agency building a knowledge base. It works really well. I have ADHD, so it’s really been a great way to organise my brain with novelty. Because sometimes I need a board and sometimes, I need a list, and so I’m able to adapt that. I will always say Notion, I love my Notion. My project management system is not that exciting, it’s just, that’s the one I always come back to.

Rachel: Amazing. 

Maggie: Wow. 

Lynne: And so interesting. I think we’re all going to go out and be better at our onboarding and set all the boundaries. I must say that you talked a bit about scheduling emails. I do that a lot. And also, because as I said, I start really early so I don’t tend to send emails at 7 am. I tend to send them at eight or nine when people are in the office because otherwise, I could be a bit scary. So yes, I think the scheduling emails is one of my favourite tools. So, tell us where audiences can find you, Maggie.

Maggie: You can find me at all my podcasts.

Lynne: Yes. Oh yes. We’ll put link to those.

Maggie: So probably the best podcast for freelancers, Staying Solo podcasts where I talk a lot about boundaries and resetting your business and all the things we covered today. My book Staying Solo is available at all the places. It’s available in Australia too. It has made its way down under and I actually have a follow-on workshop about boundaries that would be great for your audience, and they can check that out at bsfreebusiness.com/byte.

Lynne: Fantastic. Thank you. 

Rachel: Amazing. Maggie, thank you very much for coming on, it’s just been such a fascinating chat. It’s definitely got the wheels turning in my brain. I’m taking notes. 

Maggie: Rachel’s like, what day am I taking off? 

Rachel: Yes, I’m edging towards that business day once a week. That brings us to the end of the show this week. Thank you for everyone who’s listening, and we will put all the information about Maggie, how you can connect with her, find the workshop and her many podcasts, her many podcasts – way more than us. We’ll put that in the show notes in the podcast app and we will see you all next week. 

Lynne: Fantastic. Thanks. Bye.

Rachel: Bye. 

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Credits:

Listen to Maggie’s podcast, Staying Solo: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/staying-solo/id1098466347 

Take a look at her free workshop at https://bsfreebusiness.com/byte

Find Lynne www.lynnetestoni.com 

Find Rachel www.rachelsmith.com.au 

Rachel’s List www.rachelslist.com.au 

If you have questions you’d like us to answer in our next Q&A episode, just send them here.

Thanks (as always) to our sponsors Rounded (www.rounded.com.au), an easy invoicing and accounting solution that helps freelancers run their businesses with confidence. Looking to take advantage of the discount for Rachel’s List Gold Members? Email us at: hello@rachelslist.com.au for the details.

Episode edited by Marker Creative Co www.markercreative.co