Stop the Scroll: Evelina Kaganovitch on How Clear Copywriting Lands Clients

Rachel Smith: Hello and welcome to The Content Byte, a podcast for freelancers who use their words to make money. I’m Rachel Smith, a freelance journalist, copywriter, and content producer. I’m also the founder of Rachel’s List, a jobs board and community for Australian writers and other creatives. 

Lynne Testoni: I’m Lynne Testoni! I’m a journalist and content writer as well. Rachel and I are your weekly co-hosts, and every week we bring you all kinds of tips, tricks, and some fabulous guests to help you make the most of your freelance business.

Hey Rach! 

Rachel: Hey!

Lynne: I’ve got a question for you. 

Rachel: Uh oh. 

Lynne: Do you ever worry that your messaging just isn’t clicking with clients because you get to a certain stage in the sales process, and they start to ghost you? 

Rachel: Where do I start? 

Lynne: I know so much ghosting.

Rachel: I think there is a lot of ghosting, particularly at the moment, but I’m a really big fan of tweaking my messaging and trying new things as I come across them or want to learn something new just because I think sometimes making your messaging different or clearer can get people over the line. Also, the market just can be really weird and flaky, so experimentation is good. But what about you, are you doing that as well? 

Lynne: I do change, I do tweak my website quite a bit every now and then and I’ve actually added that it’s human led content now. Just as a little thing against AI. But, at the moment I’m super busy and not struggling to get clients so hopefully it’s on point. I am looking forward to our chat today with our guest. She’s going to talk to us about how to convert followers into clients with the right messaging. 

Rachel: Oh, isn’t this such a juicy topic? There’ll be so many people out there keen to hear what our guest has to say, who is Evelina Kaganovitch. She knows a thing or two about why we need to steer away from cute and clever copy, which is difficult for journalists, isn’t it, sometimes? That’s what we’ve been taught. 

Lynne: Oh, are you? I don’t think I’m cute and clever. I think I’m more straighty 180. 

Rachel: I keep thinking more for cover lines and stuff. We are taught to do a certain kind of thing. But when you’re doing your own messaging, it’s all about clarity. So, let’s introduce Evelina and get her into the hot seat. 

Lynne: Evelina Kaganovitch is a high conversion fashion copywriter who helps fashion-preneurs. I like that word, and digital product creators sell more with words that actually work with a background in sustainable fashion and a deep understanding of the creator economy, she specialises in turning vague ideas into clear, compelling messaging that drives results, especially for coaches, course creators and e-commerce brands. When she’s not mapping out launch funnels or crafting swipe worthy emails, Evelina is helping her clients grow from followers to fans, to paying customers without sounding salesy or off brand.

Welcome, Evelina!

Evelina Kaganovitch: Thank you so much for having me. I’ve been a big listener of the show for many years, so it’s such an honour to be here with you today. 

Lynne: Oh, that’s so nice. 

Rachel: We love to hear that. Always good to get a fan on the show. Well, you’ve got a background in sustainable fashion, and you are now a copywriter in that space. Tell us a bit about how those worlds converged. How did you get into copywriting, and did you do specific training? 

Evelina: I didn’t land here in the traditional sense, but I feel like every element of my life actually naturally gravitated towards it. As a kid I was obsessed with Vogue and fashion, and my room was plastered with all these different pictures and I was always writing little stories and books and being really creative and making up businesses, like forcing my brother to work in there for a few dollars, doing massages to family members.

So then as I went on, I studied fashion design at university. But there came a point towards the end of the degree where I was actually questioning everything because there were two big pivoting moments that happened. One was an alumni came in and was sharing what actually happened in the industry and what his life looked like, and it was like, oh my gosh, this is not what I thought this was about, and this is not how I picture my future. The other moment was when I finished and graduated. I was so burnt out and sick that I ended up in hospital and instead of celebrating that I’d finished this long and difficult degree, I was burnt out and hating it.

I thought, okay, this is not how I picture myself, so I actually took some time, and I moved overseas to Berlin, and I started working with different creative startups, nonprofits, small brands, accelerator programs, and an amazing unicorn startup. I handled everything from messaging to socials to UX and writing, and also through my studies I was already freelancing for some magazines and writing, and I just was really drawn to the storytelling element, and I think part of it also came quite naturally to me, the writing side, and I just lit up when I was doing this type of work and working with businesses and meeting new people. So then when COVID hit, I really went deep into like buyer psychology. I studied UX, I studied marketing, I studied copywriting as well and just dove into this whole world and was obsessed. I realised that writing copy wasn’t just a skill I had, it was something I could genuinely help businesses with and finally, that they could express their value. Clearly. 

So that was my journey. Here I am now. Between that, I had my daughter as well. So, I’ve been building my business and juggling being a mum as well and being really specific in who I target and who I can help is also a really good time saver because, you have limited time, and you want to make the most of it too. So that’s how I ended up where I am today.

Lynne: Wow, such an interesting journey. I’ve worked in fashion magazines, and I always know, I wonder, and we know from the freelance community that we’re in, it can be really hard to get some high paying clients in fashion. It’s an industry notorious for running on free labour, especially smaller brands that may not have the budget. What kind of clients are you targeting? 

Evelina: I can totally resonate with that, Lynne, it is so notorious, and I’ve been in those positions where I have done that work for exposure and then really regretted it because it’s just not fair. I have worked with smaller brands, but now I work with creative founders – course creators, coaches and digital product sellers who already haven’t audience. But they just aren’t getting the results that they want from their copy or they’re just so time poor that it’s really helpful for them to have somebody with those skills to step in and guide them to reach their next goals. Many of them do come from a fashion or creative background and they have some understanding, but they’re trying to DIY their messaging. They’ve outgrown that scrappy phase, and they just want copy that sounds like them and it sells, and they can focus on developing more products or going and doing more publicity things and have their business running in the background. Being business owners themselves, we connect on the level that, we wanted to have our own business and have our own freedom and work on our own terms. So that’s been the types of customers or clients I should say I work with now. 

Rachel: Talk us through the process because I’m guessing you kind of were in that stage where you were doing everything for everyone and then you decided, no, I’m going to specialise. What did that process look like? 

Evelina: It’s a good question and I feel like it’s relevant to many freelancers when you start, you’re trying to get experience and you’re picking up projects and jobs from everywhere and you should be saying yes to everything to get that experience. But there comes a point where, you should look long term at what you want your business to look like because we are running a business, even if it’s a one woman show and for me, a big moment in that was when I had my daughter where I was like, okay, I’m at home with her. I have X amount of time to work. I just can’t take on these random projects and also take on work from industries that I’m not an expert in and I don’t know so much about because that learning curve for me to go out and learn the terminology, the technical side, if they have regulations, is just too steep.

So, my way of looking was, what is the one problem I’m solving for one particular person slash client and does that niche have money to pay? Because that’s also important. I think there’s nothing bad about talking about the payment and the money and in a lot of your episodes as well that’s a big thing that comes up with rates and charging. So that was a big also mental shift for me to say, okay, I have those skills, and I have that experience, and I can genuinely help people, and I do deserve to be compensated for it. So, setting up that process and making sure all marketing touch points from my website to the content I put out on my socials and my emails speaks to that one customer. Actually, it’s made it so much easier because I just have one person in my head that I’m writing for at one time and I direct it all to that one avatar instead of trying to be everything for everybody. 

Rachel: I love those two questions. They’re really simple, but they’re really good questions to ask if you are considering niching. You need to know if the niche you’re choosing, if there’s money there and what’s the problem I’m solving? I love those. 

Lynne: I guess though, I mean, we all go through a bit of nerves when you do that. Were you nervous about losing clients when you started to niche? 

Evelina: Definitely. It’s so scary, especially when this is the only thing you do when say you’ve got a back, a part-time role or you’re working full-time and you’re freelancing on the side and building up your business, then you’ve got that safety blanket.

For me, this was. That was it. I didn’t have a safety blanket and there were bills to pay, so it was very scary. But I do understand if you keep doing the same thing and expecting the same results, then you’re a little bit insane. So, I am a bit of a risk taker, and I took that chance on myself. Also, I did do the research and a lot of people who were in the position that I wanted to be in did say that. So, I thought, okay, I am going to listen to that guidance and advice. And it was actually amazing because the opposite happened once, I got clear on how I help somebody and who I help, referrals increased, my content resonated more with people, my offers became easier to sell. It was like people could see me for me finally, and my audience started to trust me more because I was speaking about their pain points, and they could relate to that. When we would jump on meetings or have calls, it was like they were already meeting with somebody they knew similar to, I jumped onto your podcast, and I felt like I already knew you both because I’ve been a long-time listener. It felt really natural, and I think that’s a big part of when you niche down, you become known as that person. 

Rachel: Definitely. I know I’m trying to niche into, well, I’ve gone from being a journalist into being more of a copywriter, and so I’ve niched down into being a web copywriter who solves problems for service-based businesses because I realise those were the types of clients that I attract all the time. But just listening to you talk is really interesting because a lot of those businesses, there is a learning curve. I have to learn the terminology and all of that, but the ones that are highly regulated, I’m with you. I just would steer clear because you need a massive budget, don’t you, just to get through that point to confidently write for those clients. 

Evelina: Agreed and also in that sense, I have done some projects like that, especially when working with agencies, and one recently was for Amazon Web Services. And just working with such a big corporate, the amount of approvals and levels of people it needs to go through compared to working with a business owner one-on-one. It’s a world of difference. 

Rachel: I saw that logo on your LinkedIn actually because my husband is knee deep with Amazon Web Services. He’s an IT cloud architect and I thought, oh my god, Evelina must be so techie to write for them. 

Evelina: It took a lot of that learning curve of course was a very technical, I was like listening to podcasts nonstop and reading and it was like I was dreaming by the end. But it was a really great experience. 

Lynne: Amazing. But the whole niching idea and getting to be a bit of an expert, I think that’s a great way. Because I think there’s a big issue for many freelance writers and small business owners is about marketing themselves without sounding salesy.  Do you see that as a way of doing that? How do you write your copy or picture services in a way that doesn’t sound too salesy? 

Evelina: So, I look at it from the approach of, you don’t need to be loud and screaming to try and, buy up customers and attention on the internet. That’s just for me personally, not what I’m about. I just want to sound like me and attract the people that feel that they click with me. I think the problem isn’t so much self-promotion because at the end, we’re all in business, so of course we’re trying to sell something, but there’s nothing wrong with it. If you’re se selling like something amazing and solving someone’s problem, they’re going to be so happy to have found you.

The challenge is like vague messaging, so when your copy doesn’t reflect your personality or your values or your voice. It’s here and there and not really hitting anything. It can feel like selling because it’s like those loud sale banners that you see all over the shopping centre, where you’ve got, I guess, Apple that is so cool, calm and collected, but people go there and line up for it because they know exactly what it’s about.

They’re not trying to vie for your attention to get their sale, they just get it. So, for me, the way I balance it is I mix my content between inspirational content and then educational content and a bit of promotional content as well. And that way you can mix that value-based content to genuinely help someone, especially when we’re talking about socials and that top of funnel where someone is just getting to know you and your work.

It’s also a good opportunity to show some of your work and your projects and case studies and testimonials and then mention, I’ve got a spot for this month or if you’d like help with X, Y, Z, let me know that that’s a good way, without shouting about it, just by presenting your work and what you’ve done.

Rachel: Well, I know everyone will want to know like how to write copy that’s not clever or cute, but really clear. We talked a little bit about how clarity is so important with your messaging. So, what are your strategies for that? 

Evelina: For me, the biggest thing, even before writing someone is the research behind it. It’s the 80% because if you might have amazing copy, but if it doesn’t speak to your target audience, it’s going to fall flat. So, a big thing for me is to go and do that research and work out, this is the customer, this is their pain points. I look at interviews, transcripts, do data mining or scraping, that’s called. There’s some really great AI tools for it too, to see what these people are talking about on the internet, what problems they’re solving, and then what kind of words and languages phrases are being repeated, looking for those patterns and incorporating that into the copy because, that’s what also I think makes human copywriters not ChatGPT, still in demand because, we still have that high level thinking. So, when you can lead with empathy and structure and sales can naturally follow as well. That’s my approach to looking at being really clear. A big thing as well is not overcomplicating it when it comes to language.

I’ve seen that a lot in the creative industry, especially fashion and even like more techie industries too, like finance and even health. They use a lot of really technical industry language or in the creative space, it’s really, how should I say? Dressed up to make it look and sound really pretty, because it’s all about grammar and allure but at the end of the day, the average consumer, those are not the words going through their heads. So, speak to them where they’re at and use the word that they’re already using with themselves, and then your message will get across. 

Lynne: So interesting. I do remember my time at Elle when I used to write all the fashion copy, but I would get a brief from the fashion to team about what they were thinking of and there would be wonderful, inspiring words that I’d have to turn into practical things. Might be Sicilian widow floating black and then I’d have to turn it into actual copy and it’s a great training ground. I think it was really good and I think trying to be simple is a real skill for journalists. I think we are always getting complicated things and making it simple. 

Why do you think clarity is important? Do you think that’s one of our roles as a copywriter? Because often the business owners, they’re so caught up in their own philosophy that you’ve got to translate it for their audience. Is that how you see it? 

Evelina: Definitely. Also, for the business owner, if they’re hiring a copywriter, a marketing professional, they’re hiring you because at the end of the day, they want to increase their sales. Something’s not working or they’re time poor or they just don’t have the capacity or the skills. So, they’re bringing you in to work out where those holes in the bucket are and patch them up using your vehicle, which is the copy. So being really clever, like you were saying, Lynne, with that whimsical language in fashion. I think it’s beautiful in journalism and storytelling because that’s the whole idea. It’s meant to be intriguing and paint this big picture so you can visualise something. But the point of copy is at the end of the day, it’s to sell. It’s to lead to a certain action on an ad, it’s to click on an email. It’s also typically to click on a sales page. It’s to buy or book a call.

Everything you do when you’re writing that copy needs to lead to that end result. It’s as much strategic as it is an art form. Of course, there’s room for creativity because otherwise you just sound like ChatGPT and everything else out there and it does make sense to include some of that industry language or analogies or little pop culture references, but it has to be done in a tasteful way that aligns with the audience. But always, if you’re choosing between the two, say in the example of a headline, pick clear over clever. 

Rachel: I love that. Also, I think when you’re thinking about copywriting, it’s really useful to think of it as I’m solving a business problem for this client and that’s something that perhaps we can forget if we want to try and make it sound. 

Lynne: We get caught up in our own cleverness. 

Rachel: Yes, exactly! You’re actually, as a copywriter, you’re solving business problems. 

Well, you must see so many freelancers across LinkedIn and as part of your research and small businesses. What other common mistakes do you see people make with their copy that really just give you a face palm moment? 

Evelina: I guess carrying on from the last part, I would say using really fancy words instead of actual language that the audience uses. And off that point, I see a lot of marketers also, and I’ve heard this from clients as well, when they’re speaking to their clients, they’re using really complex terms and concepts and strategies, and I’m not sure if it’s to impress or to confuse. But at the end of the day, that business owner is really confused, and I don’t think that’s fair because if you are hiring somebody as that business owner, you have the right to understand what that person is doing and to also have your input to say, yes, it aligns with my business and my values, or no, it doesn’t, let’s change direction. One thing is this over complication of everything and the other thing that is a little bit ironic when we’re talking about copywriters is a lot of relying on AI. There’s definitely a place for it in terms of how to use it for brainstorming and ideation and all that. But if you are copywriter and that’s what you’re doing and for clients, then you would expect that the copy you write for yourself is also has human elements, human touch or at least a human edit to it. So that would be the biggest thing for me that I see. 

Lynne: One of the things that struck me when you were talking about the research, I loved your idea of that data sweep. Do you think that helps you write copy for clients that sounds like them? What do you do, pick out particular words or phrases? How does that look like in in action? 

Evelina: When I work with somebody new, I take them through a process. I call it a voice printing process and it is a little bit different depending on if that brand or that business is founder led, so it’s that actual individual selling as themselves, or it’s a business and they’re the founder or they’re part of the team. But the basics of it is we use one long call I have, which with a new client and go really deep into their origin story and their triggers and their business, why they started it. Those really emotional sides because that is really strong when it comes through in your marketing, in your content because as humans, we connect to stories, we connect to people. That emotional side is what gets someone to trust you and then it’s the logical side of the brain that buys. So that’s so important. That’s the first part of what I do and then the second part is, I take the other existing content that the person has, so that could be interviews, past content, DM’s, voice notes, whatever that is for them and I analyse that. I look at patterns in what they say and the nuances and how they speak and also listen to it as well.

Then the third element, which I think is really vital, because there’s two parts. There’s one part which is the business owner themselves. How they view their business and how they want to come across and the second part is their target audience and how they speak and what their problems are. It’s bridging that in a really nice, smooth way and to get that understanding of the customers as well that data scraping Lynne, that you mentioned before is really great because you can look at, for example, Instagram or TikTok or LinkedIn and check all these comments or Reddit as well and check all these comments and words that come up. I even had a project that for a brand in the sustainable fashion space that was targeting Gen Z, and it was really trendy, really edgy and just a really cool brand. I was doing this data scraping and looking at patterns and how they speak, and I made one recommendation for the formatting, which was a little bit out there. And I was like, you are welcome to say no. But what I noticed with that demographic is when they write or type on the internet, they actually don’t use, sentence case. So, when it’s full stop and the sentence starts, they actually just continue with lowercase. So little details like that can actually make a really big difference because then the audience thinks they are understood, and the client as well is happy because you are connecting in a good way. 

Rachel: You mentioned earlier, I just wanted to go back to it for a second, that there’s some great AI tools that can help with analysis or help once you’ve got your data, once you’ve scraped your data and you want to analyse for those trends or patterns. Is that how you use AI? What kind of tools do you use to do that? 

Evelina: I use a couple. For the research, I actually can’t think of it off the top of my head, the one that scrapes the data. But there’s quite a few tools. Some of them plug into more than one social media channel at once, and others are platform specific. They’re also called social listening tools and they’re really good at looking at this type of data. Then the other one I personally really like is Otter.ai. It’s when you are speaking, it transcribes what you’re saying, and then you can use that information for whatever it might be. For me, as a busy person, I make a lot of my content. I speak it out loud or even emails or newsletters, and then I can use that transcript and turn it into written content. 

Lynne: Oh, interesting. 

Evelina: I think ChatGPT and just for AI are also fantastic for that marketing, brainstorming and dissecting ideas and saying here are ten podcast transcripts, can you analyse this and find X, Y, Z patterns and pull-out common phrases, whatever it is you’re looking for. It just makes it a lot more comprehensive for the client. That wasn’t possible before because it’s just humanly, you can’t sit through so many podcasts and look at it line by line and pull out this information and it can be a lot more efficient as well in your own business. 

Rachel: That’s where AI really excels when you upload certain things like documents or transcripts or whatever and ask it to isolate the trends. It’s amazing. I love that, that use of AI. 

Evelina: Which ones do you use?

Rachel: I really have only experimented with ChatGPT also use Otter, obviously for transcripts as well. But I haven’t branched out. We’ve tried a few at the podcast. We tried one, which basically researched guests for you and gave you a report before you had the guest on. That was quite interesting, wasn’t it, Lynne? I think, I shared a few of those reports and then we decided. 

Lynne: I wasn’t keen. I felt it was too superficial. 

Rachel: But I thought it was interesting just from a research perspective. It would go and scrape the internet for all this information about the guest and then give you question suggestions and a bio, a summary of that person and interesting points about them. I actually thought that was really quite amazing. But we do our own research. 

Lynne: I use a few to pull out things like show notes as a starter point. I used a script, and I use Fathom as well. So, they’re quite handy but I find we do little audio grabs of all our guests, and I used to use Descript, and I find that I never get as good grabs as the ones when I go through the transcript myself.

I just find that they get the obvious and the superficial, not the clever, and not necessarily the most insightful, but I do like the fact we have an AI transcription, so I don’t have to sit down and listen to it to pull out the things. I’ve got something that I can skim and find the bits that I like. I think that it does save a lot of time. 

Rachel: I know you mentioned social listening tools. I have used some as well, and I cannot for the life of me, remember the names. I think some of them are quite expensive as well. So, if you’re not doing it all the time, it can, unless you pass that cost on to the client, I suppose. I don’t know if you do that. 

Evelina: I think it depends on the project, right? And some clients, if it’s a bigger company, they’re happy for that to be tacked on. In other cases, if you just need it for a few days, you can get a free trial and cancel it. 

Rachel: That’s true. Well, I mean, on the topic of AI, freelancers are obviously sending letters of introduction as part of their outreach, I suppose, and there’s probably that temptation to do some of that in ChatGPT, but how can you stand out when you’re pitching? Would you just say, avoid AI and just try and sound like yourself when you’re actually pitching for work? 

Evelina: I wouldn’t say avoid AI because I think it’s unavoidable now. If you are not using it, then you’re kind of going to be left behind, but use it in a smart, human led way. So, if we’re talking about pitching, I would suggest to always make it personal to that person to begin with.

It’s very obvious, and nobody wants to receive a mass email. Do check their name, do check what they’ve done. Connect with them if you genuinely feel you can help them and that your values align with this business’ values. Check who that person is and the work they’ve done. And then I think it’s okay to have AI help you write out an email that has certain frameworks that are repetitive over if you’re sending ten or twenty because we don’t have fifty hours in a day to send cold emails. It’s finding that balance but of course, making sure that there are elements of human touches and that you’ve addressed this person because otherwise it just gets deleted. 

Lynne: You’ve got to have some human element, I think. You seem to write everything from web copy to ad copy, but email marketing is your favourite, is it? Tell us why. 

Evelina: I really love it. I think because it’s so intimate and it’s also a really good length in terms of structuring the copy because with ads they’re quite short and snappy. With a sales page or a website, it’s quite long form or a really long article. But with email, the way I approach it is I make sure each email is focused around one idea and one story, and one call to action to click. So, it actually makes it easier to be really succinct on there. Also, if somebody’s opted into your email, it means that they have seen enough of you on the front end, as they say, that they want to know more, that they have signed in, they’ve given you their email address and when they open your email, it’s one of the few places where they’re not distracted by other things, so you actually have their attention for that moment in time. It’s such a powerful channel and I’ve just really enjoyed also learning all these different frameworks and writing methods for emails and playing around with them and injecting stories. I like playing around with formatting as well, if we’re getting to the nitty gritty because I think formatting can also convey a really big sense of emotion and personality. And some of the other channels don’t allow for that, but email really does, especially that written book. 

Lynne: Is that your creative art background coming in?

Evelina: I think so and I actually get quite a lot of replies to my emails, which is really, really nice. And that’s the part that my audience likes. I even had someone reply to the last one and said, oh, I really like how this sounds it’s really interesting or fun or creative, whatever she said. But all the other ones sound different. She couldn’t quite pick what it was, but she could tell there was a difference and was from what I was saying to myself in my head is probably because most of them are written with AI. When you see somebody that’s actually written it and it’s a story and you feel that connection and then I see the formatting as that change of tone and that body language in a sense of an email that adds an extra layer of character. That’s why I just love it. I could write them all the time. 

Rachel: Do you have all your clients and do you have different email list for say, established clients and also new leads coming in. And how often do you email those groups? 

Evelina: At the moment I’m building my list. So full disclosure, it’s not a very big list, but it’s a very curated, engaged list and I have Flo. I’ve got a welcome flow, and then I’ve got the two lead magnets. There’s two ways somebody can join, either if they want to opt into one of the guides that I’m sharing and they will receive that and then go onto the welcome sequence after that, then eventually get put into the normal weekly marketing emails and or the other one is to just go straight onto the welcome sequence without downloading the freebie.

I don’t like emails that spam a lot, so I take the less is more approach and I just email once a week. A lot of the time what I do is if something happened, for example, we’ve got this podcast recording, I would share a story about this and why it was important to me and a lesson from it, and then I would link and say, oh, you can listen to it here or if you would like help with X, Y, Z, you’re welcome to book a call with me. 

Rachel: Interesting. Well, let’s just move over to social for a minute because I know lots of freelancers will kind of pump out this high value content. This how to type content, which we can know, can lead to people consuming all your content but not actually buying from you. What’s going on there is there a fine line between what you share or how you share your knowledge on social? 

Evelina: I think it’s also finding that connection because social is one piece of the puzzle. What happens after social, so working that into your social media strategy of saying, okay, this is my content plan for August, September, and how do I drive people into the next step of my funnel? Making sure that content you’re sharing values and also connecting it to the next steps. Tell your audience what you want them to do. Be surprised how much guidance somebody needs. Make it really clear and that content that you’re sharing on social should really be coherent with everything else in your marketing funnel.

If what you want somebody to do from a social post is to download your guide, then say that and link it and make it really clear if you want them to book, call or send you a message or reply to it, make that clear. I think a lot of that disconnect happens that we get so excited building a social following and saying, I’ve got X amount of followers, and it’s almost like a status symbol but at the end of the day, if that list doesn’t convert, you don’t really have a business. So, it is thinking about, it’s better to have less but really highly engaged in a loyal audience than an audience that is just there for vanity metrics. 

Rachel: Also not including, you must see that like people don’t include a CTA, they don’t have any kind of call to action asking for something at the end of that high value post, which is a wasted post essentially, isn’t it? 

Evelina: Exactly. You’ve spent I don’t know how long, 30 to 60 minutes, the brain power of thinking about it, mapping it out, writing it, scheduling it, posting it, and then you’ve left so much on the table by not just adding a simple line of, here’s what to do next. I’m not sure if it’s maybe a mental block for some people, like we were saying before, this salesy element to it, to not want to come across as a spammy marketer. But if you’ve just described this great way, you can help someone, there’s a very high chance that they might want to get in touch with you and have a conversation, and even if they’re not ready to buy yet, but maybe they’re ready to go on your email list and learn more from you. So, almost doing them a disservice by not giving them that next step of what to do. 

Lynne: So how do you do that in a nice, natural way that stops them hesitating. 

Evelina: You can use really gentle language. I think it depends on the person and freelancer. You can say, I invite you to download this guide, if you’d like to learn more, click here. It’s just gentle language like you would be talking to a friend. You wouldn’t be blasting them with, do this now. Be a little bit more subtle and kind and considerate. 

Rachel: And maybe saying, I’m Rachel Smith, I’m a copywriter for service led businesses. If you’d like to talk about X, Y, Z, – I see that people do that. They put a line at the bottom of the post and then underneath they have a mini bio that sometimes can help too. If you want to revisit, who that person is, it’s a quick way to do that. So, I like that idea too.

Evelina: That’s a good point because for a lot of people who are seeing your content, they might be seeing it for the first time. So even though they’ve resonated with what you said, they don’t know who you are. So, it’s nice to give them that guidance. Or even if they’ve seen you once or twice, just that reminder because you see so much on the internet. It’s hard to remember everybody. 

Rachel: Absolutely. Well, it has been a bit of a wobbly couple of years for many freelancers, so I’d love to hear what changes you are seeing in the creator economy and what your advice is for writers who are finding their former tried and tested marketing strategies are no longer working.

Evelina: I think this whole COVID and AI shift has really affected the copywriting marketing world. And not saying in a bad way, just, it’s shifting. From an audience perspective, I believe they’re less trustworthy because there’s so many scams and so much, unfiltered things and fakes on the internet that people are craving a, trust and b, more connection and community and we’re seeing brands that are building that are doing really well. So, this just sharing templates or tapping into trends just isn’t enough anymore. They want community and novelty and even this Labubu craze that’s happening at the moment. I personally, I don’t get these dolls. I find them very creepy, but I understand the tactics behind the marketing strategy, and it’s very smart, and they’re so big right now. They make a desirable product that taps into this nostalgia and they’re selling it using an exclusive matrix.

So, if it would say anything to fellow freelancers is to get specific. Who do you help? How does your offer solve an actual problem? The more structured and anchored your message is and the more honest you are, and also showing your face, because now this is how you build trust. They want to see it’s an actual person. The more resilient your business will become and the more you can also walk into conversations with confidence and clarity that this person that’s meeting with you knows you already. They like you already, they trust you already, and it just makes it so much more enjoyable for everybody involved. 

Lynne: You talked a little bit about, you’ve got a couple of lead magnets, which is how you help to build. Do you want to talk us through that and how they work and how they work for you and the differences between them? 

Evelina: So, I’ve got a couple that I’ve created. One is an email subject line swipe file, and it’s got a list of all these different subject lines that I have tested myself and get good open rates. The reason I made that was because I was looking into the problems that my target market has, and it was with their emails. And the biggest thing was no one was opening the emails so then as amazing as the content is inside, nobody’s checking it and reading it. I was like, what can I do to help them get an easy win in that first step? That’s how I came to this email subject line, swipe file and that was the first one and the second one was a guide on how to hire a copywriter. What things to look out for, green and red flags. Because what I was seeing and hearing from clients as well was that they’d worked with copywriters before and they would be coming into the calls with me sceptical because they’d been burned or the person just ghosted them, or it just wasn’t a good quality job that in the end they were up till like 3AM trying to do it themselves before a big launch.

It was like, how can I solve that for them that if they do decide to hire a copywriter. I’m not saying that’s me, whoever that is for them, what can I do to help them avoid these problems? I created a guide that shares, look for this, like this. Then the next time they do go to work with somebody, they can feel more confident stepping into that conversation and saying, okay, no, this person is a red flag or, yes, this person is professional, will be able to help me. The way I work it into my business is offering that in certain social media content where it makes sense and then if somebody gets onto that list, then they go into my email nurture funnel as well. 

Lynne: So interesting. 

Rachel: I would love to know, just in regard to lead generation generally, what are you finding is working for you right now in bringing leads into your pipeline?

Evelina: I’ve been seeing a lot of success on LinkedIn. I genuinely love LinkedIn above the other social media platforms because it has such a great community of professionals who are not there to waste time. They want to learn, and they want to connect with other leaders and decision makers. But I think, and also, I feel like LinkedIn now has this golden opportunity gate that if you start now, you can really build a really great community on there. I think that’s the top of the funnel, how I’ve been connecting and making really great connections and reaching people. The second part would be going on podcasts as well and just sharing my story and whoever it resonates with. I’ve seen the traffic coming in both into the LinkedIn or the email list or reaching out directly, which is really wonderful to see, and I think also now hearing somebody’s voice or seeing their face builds that trust as well. That’s a big component and that’s what I’ve seen for that lead generation from the top level.

Rachel: Amazing. Well, gosh, we could talk to you all day, but we probably should wrap up. Something we do like to ask our guests though is about their favourite tools or the services that they would be lost without. I know you mentioned a few earlier. What are yours? 

Evelina: I really love Otter.ai because I record so many things when I’m out for a walk with my daughter or we’re at the play centre and I don’t have so much time and I’m a bit of a talker, so it’s quite nice for me to be able to articulate things using my voice. That’s a big one that I use, and I would say that’s my top one, and I’m also excited to look into using video clipping apps, but I haven’t started that yet. 

Lynne: Oh wow. It’s so interesting. I keep looking. I want to look at Flow, which is obviously the new Google AI video app and that’s the big thing at the moment. I think they released it last week, so that’s big. 

Thank you so much, Evelina. It’s so interesting. I think we really learned a lot, and I love all the process and the connecting that you have. It’s really nice to hear that human led approach you’ve got. I think that’s really valuable.

So, tell us where the audience can find you and we’ll put in the show notes the links to those two downloadables as well. 

Evelina: Thank you for having me as a guest. I really enjoyed it and it’s been a real pleasure. If you would like to find me, you can either have a look at more my work or services on evelinakreative.com. That’s with a K or connect with me on LinkedIn at Evelina Kaganovitch. Lynne, I know you’ll put the notes in there. I’m most active on LinkedIn, so if you’d like to connect, please send me a message over there and also invite you to sign up to my email list if you’d like to see what I’m doing or just get some examples of how a different copywriter writes their emails as well. Sometimes it’s so good to see what others are doing as well. 

Rachel: Absolutely. I already downloaded one of your lead magnets.

Lynne: You love the swipe file, didn’t you, Rach? 

Rachel: I did love the swipe file. I find it really interesting as well, what you mentioned in there about how sometimes subject lines on emails, if you write them and say you’re writing to a friend, we might not use a capital, an initial cap or whatever. We would just quickly write off a quick line and so that can be really effective. I struggle with that. I need the initial cap in there, but they’re really interesting to see. I would urge anyone to just download that if you’re doing a lot of email marketing and I think Evelyn is other lead magnet is how to hire a copywriter, which is great for people who hire copywriters who might be listening, but also if you are a copywriter and wondering what are the red and green flags that make you hireable, I guess.

Thank you again, Evelina. That brings us to the end of the show. Leave us a rating and review if you haven’t already. We would love to hear your feedback, and we’ll pop everything in the show notes. 

Lynne: Fantastic. Thanks, Evelina. 

Evelina: Thank you!

Rachel: Thanks. Bye 

Lynne: Bye!

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Credits:

Connect with Evelina Kaganovitch (and find her downloads) on her website: https://www.evelinakreative.com/ or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evelinakreative/

Find Lynne www.lynnetestoni.com 

Find Rachel www.rachelsmith.com.au 

Rachel’s List www.rachelslist.com.au 

If you have questions you’d like us to answer in our next Q&A episode, just send them here.

Thanks (as always) to our sponsors Rounded (www.rounded.com.au), an easy invoicing and accounting solution that helps freelancers run their businesses with confidence. Looking to take advantage of the discount for Rachel’s List Gold Members? Email us at: hello@rachelslist.com.au for the details.

Episode edited by Marker Creative Co www.markercreative.co