How pre-selling strategies can turn leads into clients with Brenna McGowan

Brenna McGowan: If someone can reflect something that they haven’t seen themselves, if they can think about their problem in a new way, there’s value in that. And so, it’s actually rethinking about how we see value.

Rachel Smith: Hello and welcome to The Content Byte, a podcast for freelancers who use their words to make money. I’m Rachel Smith, a freelance journalist, copywriter, and content producer. I’m also the founder of Rachel’s List, a jobs board and community for Australian writers and other creatives. 

Lynne Testoni: I’m Lynne Testoni! I’m a journalist and content writer as well. Rachel and I are your weekly co-hosts, and every week we bring you all kinds of tips, tricks, and some fabulous guests to help you make the most of your freelance business.

Rachel: Hi, Lynne, how are you? 

Lynne: I’m good. Busy, but good. Yes. 

Rachel: Yes. Well, I know that a lot of your work comes from referrals and word of mouth. So, does that mean you don’t do a lot of selling and marketing yourself online? 

Lynne: Not really. I don’t do a lot. I think I share my work regularly, which just helps keep me top of mind, I think.

I’m really interested in our guest today because she’s big on a certain type of selling, and it really can help freelancers warm up leads and potential clients. I actually think the way she works is similar to what I do, only it’s a bit more structured and a bit clearer. So, it’s really interesting.

Rachel: Yes, yes. We’re talking to Brenna McGowan today. She’s a launch strategist and anticipation marketing creator, and that gets my nerd alert firing, because I really want to know what that is. 

Lynne: Yes. 

Rachel: She’s going to talk to us about specific pre-selling strategies that freelancers can use in their content that they’re already creating to warm up all the lurkers and leads out there that might be a bit more slow to jump.

Lynne: I think there’s a lot of freelancers who feel like they have to hustle all the time and I think this is really valuable for those people that are worried about the hustle. 

Rachel: I’m definitely hoping I learn stuff today for my own marketing, so let’s get started. Welcome, Brenna, to The Content Byte!

Brenna: Hi. Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much. 

Rachel: We are so glad to have you here, and I’m going to dive right in, because when you pitched to us, you posed a question, and it was, “What if marketing could do the heavy lifting and create an environment where your next client is eager and ready to buy?” And that sounds like a bit of a pipe dream, but is it just about learning a different way to sell? 

Brenna: I think it’s not learning a different way to sell as much as it’s reframing how you think about your current sales period. And the way that I think about sales is, I always say, I’m a little allergic to sales. I’ve never been someone who I thought was like, “Oh, I’m a natural salesperson.” Instead, I like to create an environment where the right person comes to me, and then how can we use our marketing to do that? 

Lynne: Oh, that sounds nice. Do you see that there are big mistakes that marketers and freelancers use or make when it comes to trying to sell what they do?

Brenna: I think the biggest mistake is they… I work with a lot of coaches, course creators, membership owners, but this is even for service providers or freelancers, is I think the two mistakes are, well, there’s a lot of mistakes. So, we’ll start off with the big one, which is I think they either sell all the time, and it becomes static because you’re constantly trying to sell the same thing to the same audience, or they don’t sell enough and probably people go to the part where they don’t sell enough. 

So, I like to think about how can I start creating these cyclical cycles even if I am a freelancer, is how do I know when I’m growing my audience? How can I warm people up that become part of that audience? And then when do I know when to sell, and how can I create cycles so that it feels natural to me?

I know when I’m selling, I know when I’m not, especially if you’re, once again, someone like me who has felt a little allergic to selling in the past. It creates, actually, easier sales because people are drawn towards you. So that is the thing that I would say is the thing that I see the most.

I think the second biggest mistake that I see from clients and customers is that they over-educate their audience, that we’ve been taught in online business that we really have to give a lot of, quote-unquote, value. When we think about value, we equate that with, okay, this is what’s going to get someone to come to me, when in fact, when we over-educate our people, one of two things happens, which is they either become over-educated, they become overwhelmed with all of the information you’re giving them, or they feel like, “Oh, you’ve given me so much information, now I can go and do this myself.”

So, when I think about that time period, those are probably the biggest things that I see from my people in terms of mistakes. 

Lynne: Interesting. 

Rachel: It’s a really interesting fine line, isn’t it? Because as a freelancer, you want to showcase what you can do, but you can also run the risk of showing too much of your process and how it works. I tend to think if you are minimal about that, people think, “Oh, that person knows their stuff. I want to work with them.” But it’s about how much you actually give away, I suppose. 

Brenna: A lot of times the way that we talk about things, the way we have, if we can give ‘aha’ moments, if someone can reflect something that they haven’t seen themselves, if they can think about their problem in a new way, there’s value in that. And so, it’s actually rethinking about how we see value. 

I think the other mistake too, as we’re talking, is another mistake that I see freelancers make is that they assume that if someone is in pain, that they’re ready to buy from them, and that’s usually not the case, right? I always tell this story about – where about two years ago, I hurt my foot. I was hiking, and I did something, and I tweaked it. I was like, “Oh, okay, my foot is hurting. I better wear better shoes.” And then, I got home from my vacation, I was like, “I need to put my foot into an ice bath.” And it’s three or four months later, and I was hobbling along in pain. And so, I had to come to this moment where I was like, “Okay, maybe I should actually do something with my foot, like actually go to a doctor.” That’s how I see our audience. 

There’s a book, Chet Holmes wrote, and it’s called The Ultimate Sales Machine, and he talks about how a large majority of our audience, I think it’s like 99% of people, are not ready to buy right now. And so that’s the other thing. We think, oh, just because I get into, in front of an audience of people who has a certain pain, then they’re naturally going to want to buy from you, when really we want to start to think about, how can we start to educate someone on their pain, have them reframe or rethink about the pain that they’re in? And when we can do that, they’re much more likely to buy from us, and it feels valuable.

Lynne: So interesting. I think we see a lot of freelancers who pitch to clients who probably need their services without thinking whether the client’s ready to do that. Bad websites, terrible content, and they think, “Oh, they need somebody like us.” But there’s a reason these people have bad content. It’s sometimes because they don’t think it’s important or they’re not ready to do something about it. 

Brenna: I think that’s such a great demonstration of exactly what I’m talking about. You go to my website and it’s terrible, and you think, “Oh, good, I’m just going to pitch this to this person and they’re going to be ready. They know it’s terrible, they’re going to need my services.” And really, there’s a set of beliefs, of priorities, of why they haven’t taken care of this problem, and those are the kinds of things that we want to answer. Because when we can tap into that, then the buying decision becomes much easier.

Lynne: Yes.

Rachel: Yes. You mentioned something to us called the Anticipation Runway, and I’m thinking how would that work for a freelancer who, as Lynne was just saying, might go to a website and it’s terrible and it needs a complete overhaul, but the person isn’t in that place to hire you yet. How does the Anticipation Runway fit into that sort of scenario? 

Brenna: That’s a great question. So, for this, I just want to make sure I’m thinking through it. Are you thinking that someone is pitching cold to this person or not? 

Rachel: I suppose it could be that they’ve just stumbled across a potential lead and checked them out.

Sometimes you hear about people who do that, and then they send a Loom video and explaining everything that’s wrong with that person’s business or their website and think they’re going to get hired to do it, and there are obviously ways to ways to warm that person up, I suppose. 

Brenna: I am not like a cold expert, if you will. I would be thinking instead if I show up on Lynne’s website and it’s terrible, in theory obviously. I would be like, “Okay, how could I wiggle,” for lack of words, “how could I wiggle my way into Lynne’s world where she notices me?” So, I think that would be the first hint.

Obviously if you’re sending a Loom to someone, and they may not… I get these pitches all the time that I don’t even open it, right? Where people are trying to tell me, “Oh, I can fix this for you,” or “I can do that.” I just delete, delete, delete. However, if I showed up on Lynne’s website and maybe I message her, I find her on Instagram and I say, “Lynne, so great to meet you. I see you live in beautiful Australia. I actually dream of coming to Australia.” I bet at that point, if I start… Now, this isn’t exactly Anticipation Runway but I’m going to get there. 

So, if I did that, that would be the way that I would think I could get into Lynne’s world and get her to notice me, because I bet Lynne is going to go, “Oh, wow, Brenna’s a pretty nice person. I’m going to go check out and see what she does.” And then if I can have some content where I get Lynne into my world and move her down the Anticipation Runway, that is how I would start it off. So, the first thing I want to think about, when I think about marketing and sales, I always think, okay, it’s kind of like a… My husband’s a small plane pilot and, every time we fly, which hasn’t been for a while because we don’t currently own a plane, but back in the day when we did, we’d get onto the runway, and he does the same things every time, right? Even, if he flew this morning, even if he’s flown, a hundred times before, he does the same set of actions.

And so that’s how I think about the Anticipation Runway, which is how can we start doing these series of actions with our content that draws people towards us? So, do you want me to kind of break down what each step is? 

Lynne: That’d be great. 

Brenna: Okay. So, the first step in the Anticipation Runway is what I call why content, which is why do you do what you do? So, Simon Sinek, his famous quote which is, “People don’t buy what you do, they buy why you do it.” So, I am always thinking about, how, especially in a world right now where people aren’t as trusting well, when we can tap into, why we started what we did, it really resonates with people.

But it’s not just an origin story. But before I go into that, what I want to say is the big mistakes I see when people start talking about why they do what they do is they think, “Oh, I’ve already told this story one time, so no one is going to be interested.” Or they feel like, “Oh, gosh, people don’t really care about what I’m doing,” and that’s not the case. We want to do business with those cliche, but it’s true, with those we know, like, and trust. But we don’t want to just tap into an origin story. We want to think about what your method is behind what you do, how it’s the right approach for your person. So, we tell our story through the lens of our ideal customer or client.

So, for example, for me, when I talk about, why I do what I do, I talk about how… I have a couple of versions of this story, but, if I’m talking about pre-selling or pre-launching – the version of the story I’m telling is the reason I got into this is because I had a couple of failed launches. I was working with clients and, I was a copywriter and things didn’t go very well, and I was crying one day trying to figure out, why the heck did we not make more sales? When I was able to stop crying and think about it for a moment, it’s because I realised people were missing what we’re talking about today, which is the Anticipation Runway.

So, it’s like, how can you start to tell the story where someone feels like… Where they feel seen through your story. Because my friend Cheri Moise talked about, she has this quote where she says that lived experience builds authority, and that’s exactly what it does. So, how can you start sharing more of what you do, and get people buying in because of, of that story?

Okay, so the second step in the Anticipation Runway is what hurts. What is the pain that you’re in? Now, if you’re an experienced marketer, you’re probably going to hear some of these and be like, “Okay, I’ve kind of heard this before.” But there’s two things that I want to say. First of all, just because we’ve heard something before doesn’t mean that we’re always doing it super well.

So, trying to keep in mind, not thinking about, am I doing this or not, but think through how well am I doing this? The other thing that I’ll say, too, is really what we want to tap into – something that’s really big with the Anticipation Runway, is that I always say when we’re building anticipation, we’re building anticipation not for our offer – we’re building anticipation for what I call the buyer’s belief statement. For example, we have a mutual friend, Susan Reoch, and she has a program called Beyond Web Copy where she helps people use UX to increase conversions. So, for Susan, when we’re going through this Anticipation Runway, we are not selling into the idea of people buying Beyond Web Copy. The idea that we’re selling during the Anticipation Runway is that you need to be UX, or user experience, that you need UX on your website and I’m butchering what Susan does a little bit, but you need to believe that UX is the way to help you to increase conversions on your website and other pieces of copy. If you believe that UX is that thing, then people are going to be much more likely to buy from you. So, keep in mind as I’m going through the Anticipation Runway that we’re actually selling the idea behind the offer. We’re not selling the actual offer. 

Lynne: Yes. 

Brenna: So, when it comes to what hurts, something that I hear a lot lately and it drives me crazy is that pain points are dead, and it’s not the case. What is dead right now is C-level marketing around pain points. Only speaking to surface problems, making assumptions about our ideal clients and customers. Assuming, once again, I talked about it already, assuming someone is in pain and they’re ready to take action, right? Assuming that me with my foot that is hurt, that I’m ready to actually do something when I’m not.

But when you can start to really tap into your ideal clients and customers and talk about the pain and express it in a way that they truly understand and feel seen by using their words, it creates engagement. It creates connection. I tell an embarrassing story, which I’ll tell on here. I said this on stage, but being in my late forties, I now have something called chin hair, and if you would’ve told me in my twenties, when I was young and cute that, “You’re going to have hair growing on your face,” I would’ve told you, “No, that’s not going to happen to me,” right? I’ve had laser hair removal, and I still can’t stop it. 

So, when I think about the chin hair story, I don’t tell that just to embarrass myself, but if I have someone who is trying to sell me laser hair removal and they tap into that pain that I’m not saying out loud although I’m embarrassing myself for the benefit of the audience. Yes. Right? It’s like, if you can tap into that, I’m automatically going, “Okay, this is the person who gets me,” right? They truly understand what I’m going through.

So, during the Anticipation Runway is that when we’re talking about pain though, and this is really hard for my people, is you’re not actually solving pain. You’re actually reflecting that you understand their pain. 

Rachel: You’re kind of naming it. 

Brenna: Exactly. You’re naming it and so as marketers, we’ve been taught, if I’m going to bring up the chin hair story, or if I’m going to bring up to someone, they have chin hair, I automatically need to try and sell them the thing that’s going to help them with their chin hair. Where it’s like, no, I just want to see that you understand where I’m at. Because there’s so much value in not being alone. So, just keeping that in mind is that we really want someone to feel seen during the Anticipation Runway.

Lynne: I’d love to talk about storytelling. So that seems to me a real big part of that sort of runway – developing the narrative. Do you think that’s a big part of the Anticipation Runway and pre-selling? And what sort of stories do connect best? Do you need to be personal, or are they situational?

Rachel: Like lessons on a project or something like that? 

Lynne: Yes.

Brenna: I love this question. Storytelling is a huge part of what I help people do and it’s what I love is that you can use story to sell or get people bought into whatever, your mechanism is. When it comes to what stories you can tell, you can tell a personal story, you can tell an analogy. You can tell a metaphor. You can tell a story about something that happened to your kids. I always find myself going down nostalgia, where I’m talking about being a kid in the nineties. You can tell all types of stories. So, when we’re going through the Anticipation Runway, what we want to think about is… So, Lynne, we’ll role play this on you a little bit. What is one of the major pains that your clients or customers have? 

Lynne: Oh, that’s a tricky one, isn’t it? I think that it’s about making… I work with a lot of building products and things like that, is to put something tangible in the products, like make it a bit more glamorous, I guess, a bit more exciting, rather than just products like, cladding or insulation or something, is to add a bit of glamour and a bit of style to it.

Brenna: Okay. So, your person is, just so I’m getting an understanding here, your person is selling insulation. Am I correct? 

Lynne: Yes. 

Brenna: And so, they feel like you’re helping them with the advertising or the writing for that? 

Lynne: I do a lot of case studies where I show how the insulation works in a project and how it contributes to a project.

Brenna: So, if you were trying to attract someone that, this is where my brain is going, so we can take it a different direction. But your person is someone who sells something like insulation, which feels really boring, right? So that’s the core emotion or feeling. So, I would tap into a story where what’s something that actually on the surface seems boring but is super interesting.

I would be thinking through, how could I reflect back to them maybe something that would be boring to me would be golfing. I’m making stuff up here. So, my husband’s a golfer, that’s what popped into my mind at first, right? But my husband, he doesn’t think golfing’s boring. He thinks it’s the best thing ever. And so, if I was going to tap into this person who, the major pain point that we’re trying to demonstrate during this time is you feel like your insulation company is boring. Well, keep in mind there’s a whole set of people that think that golfing is boring, when my husband goes out into the golf and starts talking about birdies and drivers and all these things, yet the golf industry is a bazillion dollar industry.

So, it’s only boring to the person if you’re putting your content in front of the wrong person. That’s what I help you do. I help you put your content in. So, it’s finding these threads that we can pull on that actually reflect back to them as something that they would understand, that they could see.

Lynne: Oh, so interesting. That’s really helpful. 

Rachel: Yes, because you have told about three or four stories in this podcast alone, so that’s obviously a big part of getting people to engage with you. And I think we got to maybe the third part of the Anticipation Runway, but not the end. So, what happens after, when you actually start to actually sell. 

Brenna: Once we actually sell… So, there’s two more points on the Anticipation Runway. Let’s go that, and then we can talk about what it looks like to sell on the other side. 

The third step on the Anticipation Runway is what stops someone. So, let’s, in this scenario, someone is like, “Okay, I totally think Lynne and Rachel are the best people. I understand why they do what they do. They understand how… I get that they can help me.” But there’s always going to be some beliefs and circumstances, unless we have the person who’s in so much pain, right? If we go back to me hobbling along on my foot. If my foot was broken and I couldn’t walk on it at all, I’m going to the hospital that night. We’re going to the person who’s in pain, but it’s not acute enough, and usually there’s reasons why they are not taking care of the problem.

So, we really want to think through the third step on the Anticipation Runway is what stops them. So, what are the things that they believe to be true about themselves or your method? What myths do you need to bust? What are the things that you need to reframe? And there’s someone, her name is Annie Graham, and she had this reel, and this is a demonstration of how she did this, where she’s a photographer, and she’s not my client by the way, but she’s a photographer.

And she had a reel where she says, “You trusted the person with less than a thousand followers, and they sent you these pictures.” It was something like that. And she shows all of these beautiful pictures because Annie knew that what was stopping her from getting business probably wasn’t that her people maybe didn’t like her or that, I’m making this up, but her people didn’t like her or that they weren’t in… That they didn’t need a photographer. That they’re looking at Annie saying, “Annie has less than a thousand followers so she must not be a very good photographer.” That is what she knows was stopping people. That reel alone got her ten thousand followers. I think it was shown hundreds of thousands of times because she tapped into what we’re talking about is that what are the things that stop people from buying? 

And it’s not necessarily buying your offer, and that goes back to our buyer’s belief statement. What is the idea, the method behind your offer that stops them? So for example, if we’re using Susan as our example, Susan didn’t know I was going to, she’s going to be our guinea pig today, the thing that might stop someone from buying from Susan is that they don’t think that UX is the thing that’s going to help them with conversions or maybe they think that UX is too complicated. Maybe they think UX is only for people that work corporate jobs. I’m just making these things up. But the more that she can address the things that stop people from buying from her, the more likely that they’re going to say yes when the time comes and she puts an offer in front of them. So there is one big thing though I feel like people really miss during this time is that a lot of times people will say, “Oh, I don’t have enough money,” or, “I don’t have enough money,” or, “I don’t have enough time to take care of this problem.”

A lot of what they’re saying is it could be several different things, but a lot of the times we don’t trust ourselves to take action. So that’s a big belief that doesn’t get shifted enough is how can we create content? How can we put something in front of our potential client or customer that really gets them to tap into the belief in themselves, not just in you, your product or your service?

Some of the things that I would want you to think about is, when you’re going through and you’re creating content is, how can I create content that gets people to believe that they have the ability to get this problem solved and to solve it? Because a lot of times the people that are looking to buy from us, they’ve tried to solve this problem before, and they haven’t been able to solve it, and that’s what’s stopping them is that they think, “Gosh, this is really not going to happen this time.” And especially in an environment where customers and clients have been burned, whether it’s by courses, by freelancers not doing what they’re saying they’re going to do, we really want to demonstrate why they can believe that it’s going to happen to them this time. 

Okay, the last step in the Anticipation Runway is what changes. Some people might call it future pacing. I call it a try-on session, and I love, Lynne, that you talked a lot about case studies because I think that’s really important during this Anticipation Runway is because when we’re asking someone to make a decision to buy it’s a big decision for a lot of people. And so, my whole value system is, how can we give our clients and customers a ton of autonomy in their buying decisions so that they make the best decision for themselves? And so, I think that sometimes we, we think, “Oh, okay, I’m going to put this offer in front of someone. They need what I have,” that they’re automatically going to be ready to buy.

I’m thinking of how can I… I always think about, I’m a shopper. I love to go and buy clothes and try things on, but I don’t have to commit to the outfit that I’m trying on until I actually cut the tags off. Yet we want people to be able to commit to spending money with us to write a website or do a service or our course, our program, whatever it is, and they haven’t had proper time to actually try things on.

So how can you start to, in your content, what you’re presenting for people, how can you tap into tangible outcomes? What would it feel like for them? How could you get them to mentally try on the transformation that you are offering them when you put the offer in front of it, and how can they visualise themselves getting it so that they want your solution?

Now, the big mistake I see here as well is, the things that I show my customers is that people will think, “Oh, good, I told you how I can help you, now let me go ahead and sell to you immediately.” And I want to say, there’s some value in restraint. In a world that we can get anything that we want at any time that we want, is that when you can allow someone to try on the transformation for a moment without actually asking them immediately to make a buying decision, you allow them… I kind of think of it’s like playing a little hard to get with our services. 

Lynne: You talked a bit about the lack of trust at the moment. Do you think that’s part of that building that trust relationship? 

Brenna: I think absolutely. I think that when you are… Sometimes I think trust is lost when we don’t even realise it, when we are, when someone feels like, “Oh, this person just, is just trying to sell to me all the time.” Right? Instead, when we can flip it and we can show them what’s possible, and when you don’t push. You don’t act desperate and because you come in with this confident energy, people start to get pulled towards you, and that is really my goal, is how can we set up environments in our content, in our marketing, where we’re pulling people towards us by going through the Anticipation Runway. Because I know, Rachel, you’re like, “Okay, well when do we actually sell?” And this is a great question. 

Lynne: Yes. 

Brenna: And when we think about, okay, if we’re imagining ourselves on the Anticipation Runway, we understand what our buyer’s belief statement is, and we understand the thing that’s underneath the idea, the method behind what we’re selling, and when someone believes that you are the person that can help them. When they think that you can, that you show them what pain that they’re in, you remove the things, the ideas, circumstances, or I guess you can’t remove circumstances, but you can have them rethink their circumstances around why they haven’t taken action, and you can demonstrate what’s possible. When you do go to sell, when you go to do and to me, selling is, at that point, we’re asking someone for a yes or no decision. And so often we want to rush that yes or no decision by how could we instead, back it up with creating this runway where if we do the things that we talked about, if they are a likely fit, the chances they’re going to buy from us are much higher than if we just go straight into selling.

Rachel: That’s so interesting. I want to talk about proposals, because something I’m seeing a lot at Rachel’s List, people are talking about putting proposals out. I’m doing it myself, and I’m either getting ghosted on proposals that would’ve gone through, in a heartbeat last year or the year before, or the leads are coming back with questions and then going away again and coming back with questions and going away again.

So, if you assume that someone is coming to you via your website or via, something in your Anticipation Runway that’s made them want to work with you, and then you’re giving them a proposal, so you’re essentially at that selling point of saying, “Here’s what I can do for you,” how can you do that now in this market in a way that is going to make it more effective or make it more likely that they’re going to say yes?

That’s such a big question. Sorry to lay that on you, Brenna. 

Brenna: Right? Let me think for a moment, because the way that this is so counterintuitive, to how we think about it, is, like, I’m always at the point where I’m putting my best foot forward. Of course I want your business, but I’m okay if I don’t have your business as well and so, I think it’s setting up where you’re typically – if someone’s ghosting you, how much are you following up with them? It was something that I learned from one of my friends, Marisa Corcoran, and this is in the book Never Split the Difference (Chris Voss). But usually, when I follow up with someone is, I send them a proposal. I don’t hear from them. I follow up with them. I don’t hear from them. Then I send the email that says something like, “Hey, Rachel. I know we talked about working together, but because I haven’t heard from you, I’m going to assume that you’re no longer interested in working together. If I’m wrong, let me know. But otherwise, I wish you the best of luck.” And I can say that email alone gets me a response like 90% of the time, whether it’s for work, it’s someone that I’m interested in collaborating with. And I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is, like, how could we not have that and not that we’re trying to be desperate, but how could we step away from that desperate energy? 

Lynne: Yes. Playing hard to get. That’s what you said before, playing hard to get.  

Brenna: It’s playing hard to get. And I was listening to a book, it’s called The Science of Selling, this week. And I need to… Actually, I was listening to it. I need to order it. But it talked about the more someone feels pressured into a sale, there’s a study behind it, the more they’re likely to back up, right? Because you’re asking someone to make change, make a decision. So, when you’re thinking about your sales process, it’s like, “Okay, I know that you’re interested in doing this, but you let me know if this is going to work for you or not.” I also think, too, setting, some firm deadlines is always great. “Hey, if you want to get on my roster, you need to let me know by, a week from today. Otherwise, I’m going to fill this spot.” And so, I think there’s a kind of a few different scenarios where you can think about, putting some of this into action.

But what that book had talked about, and I’ve seen it in my own business, is that you don’t want someone to naturally react. When you give them an out, and you take that pressure off, and you have that confident energy, they’re much more likely to get pulled towards you. 

Rachel: That is so interesting. So, you’re essentially closing the loop, but your script for that is quite ballsy. It’s quite, “We talked about working together. If that’s no longer happening, that’s fine. I wish you all the best.” But that gets you 90% of people replying back to you.

Brenna: Oh, absolutely. And it’s scary as all get out every time I do it. I’ve actually had to send it, not so much for client work, but I ask people if they want to be part of my event for Behind the Launch and some big names, and I’ve had to have learned. And I’m telling you, it’s like clockwork. I can think of one person in particular, “Go see me, go see me, go see me.” I sent that email, and I heard back from them within ten minutes. 

Rachel: Good tip. 

Lynne: Yes, yes. 

Rachel: I might try that with some of my proposals that are in the ether, and it’s just been… So, do you recommend just three follow, or two follow-ups? So, you send the proposal, one follow-up, and then a third, and the third is the closing the loop email?

Brenna: Yes. 

Rachel: No more than that? 

Brenna: For me, I think it depends on, I may send a fourth one depending, or I should say a third one depending on the situation. Maybe it’s someone I want to work with because it’s, once again, very… So much of what I teach is so counterintuitive because you’re thinking, “Oh, once I send that, that message, it’s done,” right? But it actually brings someone. So, most of the time, yes, I send probably about a week in advance, and then I do usually another week or so where I send out that final one. But like I said, at least, no matter what, and I think this is it for sales, is we always want a yes or no decision, right?

So, I know I don’t like things hanging out, and who knows, I don’t want to have that proposal… Although I’m sure on your proposals you’re putting, this expires on a certain date. But I don’t want a proposal out there. Who knows, I might change my prices. I just doubled my price on something recently, and if I would’ve had something open where someone could come back to me at that point and say, “Oh, I want to do this now,” and I’m thinking, “No, I don’t want to do it anymore.”

So, I think there’s that confident energy that you can start bringing in where it puts you in control, and even if you don’t hear back, it still closes that loop so you can open up your roster and your energy for the next person. 

Lynne: Yes. 

Rachel: Yes. I love that.

Lynne: Interesting. I mean, it sounds like with the Anticipation Runway, you’re sort of warming people up slowly. How do you know when this is working, and particularly, how do you know you’re on the right path in warming up potential clients? 

Brenna: I’m going to give you two answers on that. Because on one hand, I have clients and customers that are like, “Oh my gosh, I’m getting so much engagement.” People are coming to me and I’m selling, in the back end or the back door. I have had people asking me when my program is, how they can work with me. So those are some of the clues. I think the hardest part about marketing, you tell me if you agree, is that sometimes the people that actually end up buying from us are the people that you’ve never heard from, and it’s the silent lurkers. Which is why you have to… I was actually talking to my coach, this was a couple weeks ago, and I was asking her something, and she’s just like, “You make a plan and you work the plan, you trust the plan.” And I thought, “Okay, that’s kind of what I show other people.” Sometimes it’s harder for me to do myself, is like I have this plan. I know where someone comes in. This is what I’ve committed to do, and I’m going to trust that it’s going to work. And if for some reason it doesn’t, I at least have… I can go back and look at data as to why it doesn’t work, but if you don’t fully execute the plan, then you don’t know if it works.

I can tell you, I’ve had people that, I primarily sell a program called the Pre-Launch Plan program. I have people that have been on my list sometimes for years that I’ve never heard from, that suddenly send me five thousand dollars and if I would’ve only been going on the context clues around me, I would think, “This isn’t working.”

So, this is where what we do, and we didn’t even go into this part when it comes to marketing, is the first thing I do with my clients and customers is we go deep, deep, deep into messaging. We go into customer interviews. So even if you’re a freelancer, even if you’re not selling a one-to-many program like me, I’m going to say, get on and actually start talking to your potential clients and customers, and do it often, especially in a changing market. When you can go and actually start talking to people, then they tell you what you should be saying in your Anticipation Runway and therefore, because I’ve done this research, I know that I’m not just creating pain points or myths or objections. My people have not only told me what’s stopping them from taking action, but they’ve given me their exact words on how they’re doing that. So, when I go in with having that bank of information, even if it’s quiet, I have a confidence that what I’m saying is the right thing. 

Lynne: Your clients, potential clients feel that confidence, don’t they? 

Brenna: Oh, 100%. It really makes a huge difference, the confidence level that you bring, and it makes sense. We don’t want to buy from someone who’s not confident in themselves. And if we even think about that third email, right? You’re confident enough to walk away from something, and it changes their perception of you. 

Rachel: Yes, and the dynamic, it kind of puts the power back with you because you’re walking away from the opportunity. It’s interesting. 

Brenna: Absolutely. 

Rachel: Well, we’ve touched just a little bit on marketing, but I want to talk about that just a bit more, because what I see is freelancers drop the ball all the time on marketing. They either don’t do it at all or are very ad hoc, or they realise they’re really quiet and they do panic marketing which doesn’t really work for them and hearing about the Anticipation Runway makes me think that’s why that none of that works for you. 

So, if you only had, say, fifteen minutes a day for marketing, what would you tell freelancers to focus on to really build that anticipation and demand over time?

Brenna: I would say if I only had fifteen minutes, where are your people hanging out? And how can you start creating content in that space? So, if you’re super limited, absolutely it’s figuring out and not only just, where your person is hanging out, but what do you like to do as well. If your person’s hanging out on Instagram, but you absolutely hate creating a reel, well, carousels are doing all the things, then that probably maybe isn’t the best place. Something I say a lot, I talked about this on Amy Porterfield’s podcast a few months ago, which is I firmly believe in the, I have been saying it for years, which is everything works and nothing works.

Meaning, I think any type of marketing can work for you. It’s figuring out… And I also think that you can go and copy the exact same strategy that someone else is doing, and it will not work, right? So, you have to really tap into what do you like to do and where are your people hanging out so that you can create something that is sustainable and you also have to hold yourself accountable. When I go through, especially during a pre-launch, during an Anticipation Runway, I know to me, I would love to post on Instagram every day. I would love to post in my Facebook group every day. I have a podcast. But I’m always like, my absolute minimum and what I ask of my students and clients, and this is another thing when you’re thinking about those fifteen minutes, is that I think that someone should either hear you or see you at least once a week on your own platform.

If you get some podcast interviews, but those are harder. Like this interview that we’re on, I don’t know when necessarily it’s going to come out, so I don’t want to say, bank on this. I’m thinking, what do I need to do that I am getting someone to hear me or see me, especially in a world where trust is low? And then what is those minimal viable things that I’m doing? If my week goes terribly, I am still going to make sure that my podcast is getting out into the world, and that I’m sending at least two emails that week. So that is, not letting yourself off the hook. So, I think there’s a balance between, life is hard, but okay, I’m also going to hold myself accountable to doing these things.

Because another quote that I love, I’m just the quote person today, which is, I love there’s a quote that said, “Everything’s hard before it’s easy.” And it’s something that I live by. Which is any of the stuff that we’re talking about right now, you might be listening, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this seems so hard.” And I think about when I started this business seven years ago, I didn’t even want to be on camera. Now I’m speaking on stages, and that’s because I put the reps in. So sometimes you just got to put the reps in as well. 

Lynne: Yes. 

Rachel: It’s all practice, isn’t it? We have a lot of listeners who do work that can be considered a bit invisible, like strategy or editing or that sort of thing. How can you build anticipation for those services in your content? 

Brenna: I love this question, because that’s essentially what I do, right? I do strategy, I do a ton of copy editing. And so, if we’re thinking about how, you could is – I love a good Q&A. I love a good showing. Any time that we can do a little bit of showing, not telling. I love AI for this right now, because I might not want to – especially without permission, I never would, I might not want to show something that I’m editing. But I could take what I’m editing and say, ask AI, “Okay, do something like this in a completely different industry,” or recreate something that I could, go through and actually show in real time.

So, any time that I can be showing behind the scenes. Any time that I could be giving a quick demonstration, right? We’re not getting into super educational, but a quick demonstration of what I have done. Once again, if we start tapping, if we’re thinking about building anticipation, how can I reframe the, the problem that someone is thinking? How can I tap into how they’re having the same problem? And, really showing, if you will, how I do this or my thought process behind it is where I can tap into, okay, now I’m building up momentum for what’s coming up.

Rachel: I love that. 

Lynne: Interesting. And now, Brenna, we end our podcast with fast three questions. Are you ready to answer these? 

Brenna: I’m ready. 

Rachel: To be quizzed. 

Lynne: So, the first question is the favourite tools of the trade you can’t live without. What do you love? 

Brenna: Oh, that’s a great question. Let’s see… The things that I currently cannot live without, I mean, I think I can’t live without Claude, unfortunately, at this point. I feel like it’s become – it like built out a slideshow for me, so not even for copy stuff, but just like the simple things like that is definitely one of the tools. I’m almost to the point that I can’t live without it, I’ve got to use it a little bit more, is a tool called RightMessage that we’re putting on the back end of my website. So, when someone comes into my world, they fill out… Are you guys familiar with RightMessage? 

Lynne: No. Tell me about it. 

Rachel: No. What is it? 

Brenna: Okay. So, when someone gets my freebie, they go to a thank you page, and on that thank you page, it asks, it becomes almost like a quiz or a series of questions. Especially right now with, trust and saturated markets, the more that we can really do personalisation marketing in our emails is so important. So, what it does, it asks people a series of questions about themselves and collects, so that I can segment people from the time they get onto my list, and it’s done in a way that feels really fun.

So, I think right now, that’s a tool that I am absolutely loving and playing and experimenting with, and I’m excited for my next launch with RightMessage too, I haven’t done this yet, I can actually put a sales page in front of people that have different headlines based on how they’re segmented. So, if I have someone, if I have a copywriter that is interested in my program, it’s going to be a very different message than it’s going to be for an entrepreneur, and I can very easily be able to change those messages based on what I collect in RightMessage.

Rachel: Wow, that’s so interesting. 

Lynne: Interesting. That’s great.

Rachel: Okay, question two, one habit that genuinely saves you time. 

Brenna: If I, putting my phone away, I think that’s the…

Lynne: That’s a good one. 

Brenna: I would say that’s the habit, I think, that saves me time. If I can really lock and if I put my phone away, I realise how often I go to grab for it, just subconsciously. It’s actually kind of sad.

Lynne: I think we all feel that. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Brenna: I have kids who are eighteen, twenty, and twenty-three, so I think about that generation and I’m like, gosh, I didn’t even have a cell phone, right, for a good portion of my life, and now it’s attached to them. So, I would say that would be that. The other habit that I would think of is walking, which seems, counterintuitive, but when I start to feel bogged down or stressed, if I can make myself go out and walk around the block, I actually come back with so much more attention. If I’m feeling stressed, all those things, it seems to dissipate, which actually saves me time.

Lynne: Yes.

Rachel: Wow. Love it. 

Lynne: Wow. So, the final question is one thing you wish you’d done sooner in your career. 

Brenna: Oh, I love this question. I would say I’m just literally yesterday started running ads, and I wish I would’ve done that a little sooner. I started my business when I was forty, so part of me wishes that I started my business sooner. But I don’t think I’d be where I’m at by doing that. But I do think I’ve really had thought … I was a social media manager, so in my head I kind of felt like ads were cheating. I had this preconceived notion. Any ads managers that are listening to this podcast, that would be a great thing to create some of the objection content around, where I felt like, “Oh, if my message is strong enough, then I don’t need to run ads.” And it’s crazy. Now that I am moving on, I think that I would be a little bit further along if I was in – whether it’s an expense in money or expense in time, I spent a lot of time building my platform and my audience organically, which is great. But I think I could’ve accelerated some of that had I started running ads sooner. But time will tell, because I just started running ads yesterday. 

Lynne: Yes. And certainly, the algorithm has changed over the years. It certainly favours paid ads now, doesn’t it? 

Brenna: Oh, yes. I feel like I keep seeing my face all over the internet since … on my own ads. So, hopefully they’re working. I think it accelerates. I’m glad in the respect that I spent a lot of time. If you’re trying to run ads too early and what you’re doing organically is not working, then running ads isn’t going to work either. So, I think that is a benefit. But I think there’s a true advantage when you can do ads and do them right and get new people into your world that you’re – it’s a tiny bit of set it and forget it to some degree. Obviously, you have to keep your eye on your ads. But I think it allows you to expand a little bit quicker. 

Lynne: Makes sense. Wow. Thank you, Brenna. Thank you so much. Such a good chat. So interesting.

Rachel: So interesting. 

Lynne: So, tell us where listeners can find you. 

Brenna: The best place to find me is my website, BrennaMcGowen.co. I’m also on Instagram, so you can come over and say hi to me. I would love if you DM me. I respond to all of my messages personally. 

Rachel: Oh, it’s just been fascinating. 

Brenna: I was going to say, you should get on my email list too because then if you want to watch, everything that we’ve talked about, happen in real time, that would be a great way where you could see the Anticipation Runway in full effect.

Rachel: Fabulous. 

Lynne: Fantastic. 

Rachel: Okay. We’ll put that in the show notes. I think this has just been really fascinating, and I’m sure that many of our listeners are taking notes on how they’re going to tweak their marketing going forward and their content. 

Lynne: Yes. For sure.

Rachel: So, thank you. 

Lynne: Thank you for joining us all the way across the world. I think you’re actually in yesterday, aren’t you? 

Brenna: Yes. I actually spoke coherently, because it’s, like, 5 or 6 pm here, which is for me to talk and actually get something out is late, so. 

Lynne: Yes, yes. Well done!

Rachel: Thank you. You did brilliantly with – our minds are blown.  

Lynne: Yes. Wow. 

Rachel: Thank you. 

Lynne: Thank you. We’ll be back next week. 

Rachel: See you, everybody. Bye.

Lynne: Bye. 

Credits:

Brenna’s website is: https://brennamcgowan.co/

Find Lynne www.lynnetestoni.com

Find Rachel www.rachelsmith.com.au

Rachel’s List www.rachelslist.com.au

Thanks (as always) to our sponsors Rounded (www.rounded.com.au), an easy invoicing and accounting solution that helps freelancers run their businesses with confidence. Looking to take advantage of the discount for Rachel’s List Gold Members? Email us at: hello@rachelslist.com.au for the details.

Episode edited by Marker Creative Co www.markercreative.co