Creating customer-centred content with Mat Patterson

Mat Patterson: I find that the big businesses, there’s just less scope to be interesting. The bigger you get, the more constrained that messaging has to be, just because they’re trying to talk to everyone in the world. Therefore, you just can’t be as interesting. So that’s what works for me is definitely the smaller ones.

Rachel: Hello and welcome to The Content Byte, a podcast for freelancers who use their words to make money. I’m Rachel Smith, a freelance journalist, copywriter, and content producer. I’m also the founder of Rachel’s List, a jobs board and community for Australian writers and other creatives. 

Lynne: I’m Lynne Testoni! I’m a journalist and content writer as well. Rachel and I are your weekly co-hosts, and every week we bring you all kinds of tips, tricks, and some fabulous guests to help you make the most of your freelance business.

Rachel: Hi Lynne, how are you? 

Lynne: I’m good. 

Rachel: I think we’ve got a good topic today. It’s about the human side of content, especially customer service businesses, but I think that that can relate to anyone who is servicing customers – freelancers too. 

Lynne: I agree. I think it’s a really important topic and particularly given the focus on AI over the last few years and it’s in pretty well every LinkedIn post I see. So, there’s a lot of shadow there. 

Rachel: Absolutely. Well, we’ve got Mat Patterson on. He was a web designer, then he built and ran an online customer support team before spending a decade writing and speaking about delivering better online service.

He now has a freelance writing business at morehumancontent.com, where he preaches the increasing business value of being more human. This really could not come at a better time given the state of, as you say, LinkedIn and everything else AI.  

Lynne: Well chosen Mat. Yes. So, I’m really interested to hear what he has to say. Let’s get Matt on to talk about customer focused content and what it means in practice. 

Welcome Mat! 

Mat: Hello. Thank you very much for having me on today. I’m excited to be here. 

Lynne: Thanks so much for coming on the pod. It’s really interesting because you write about customer experience, support, customer centric businesses and what it means to be human, which we love.

Tell us what that means day to day. 

Mat: Well, it’s the short version, I guess, is that. I think people like to deal with people they like, which I know it’s not an incredible new idea that I’ve just come up with. But the, the nature of business is that as businesses get bigger, dealing with those businesses becomes less and less like dealing with a person that you like and more like dealing with a system, which is not probably set up.

Rachel: So true. Oh gosh. 

Mat: If you’ve ever had to call an airline or an insurance company, you know exactly what I’m talking about there. So, I think what I’m trying to do with this idea of more human is – especially try to convince all of the smaller and medium businesses and the freelancers and people listening to this probably, to not throw away the advantages you have of being small, of being a person that your customers can know and relate to because I think it’s really tempting often to try, and you see what the big companies are doing and you try and adopt their tools and their processes and their language even and the jargon.

Sort of a corporate cosplay where you are pretending to be bigger than you are because it feels like that’s necessary in the market. But big companies do all of that stuff, not because it’s the best, but just because that’s what you have to do as you get bigger. You can’t be personal; you can’t be flexible. You have to have systems which work at scale. I guess my message would be don’t try to be bigger than you are and take advantage of what you have as a small business and that you can retain that humanity and flexibility and staying close to your customers. 

Rachel: This is so interesting, this topic because we had Nadine Nethery on recently and she was talking about Bonjouro, which is like an Aussie app where you send videos to your customers, as soon as they join you and that sort of thing. Also, I know with the new Rachel’s List launch, we looked at doing a, not a chat bot, but it was a chat bot, but it was going to be me, so it was either open if I was around or it was just closed and it was never going to be an AI thing. So, there’s ways that you can still incorporate technology into your business in a really human way. I guess that’s kind of what I was getting at. 

Mat: Absolutely. 

Rachel: I know Atlassian, they have bought Loom and they are the hardest company to talk to. To find any information out about – you just cannot do it. It’s impossible. I tried to change something, and it took weeks and still no human got back to me, and it was an absolute nightmare. I’m all for this.

Lynne: Atlassian aren’t really covering themselves with glory. They’re not, didn’t they just get rid of 40% of their workforce and replace them with AI? So yeah, less said. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Mat Patterson: It’s a perfect example though, because in my, a couple of jobs ago I was working at a Sydney software startup – Campaign Monitor and in those days, which was probably 2006-7, Atlassian was very, very small too. Those guys used to come and hang out at our office in Sutherland, and it was just like a few of them. They were very accessible and very helpful. But it’s just really hard to do when you’re at a huge scale.

Lynne: Absolutely. 

Rachel: Well, I’m really interested that you started as a web designer and then moved into writing. What sort of insights did that give you – the web design world, and why did you make the switch into words? 

Mat: Well, I actually, I thought when I was at school, I thought I was going to be a journalist. That was kind of what I had in my head and then in year ten, when you have to do work experience, I did work experience with a tiny local newspaper in the Shire. I realised on day two, I don’t think this is for me. So that was a good call, I would say, given that, the state of journalism in the world right now are much more difficult than the tech world.

Lynne: Yes. 

Mat: But then as I became a web designer out of university, this is back in the late 1990s, a thousand years ago, when the technology was all very new. But what I learnt from being a web designer was that nobody was stealing my visual designs but definitely people were stealing the copy that I was writing for those websites which was probably an indication of what I should have been doing. 

But instead of then becoming a writer, I spent ten years doing customer support and running that team. But I think that is fantastic training, doing email support, fantastic training for being a writer because you are under time pressure all the time. You’re having to constantly explain things in different ways to people, and you get really instant feedback as to whether or not what you said actually made sense to the person who read it, because they will immediately email you back and say, this did not work, or I didn’t get it.

So great skills that I learnt from there and then when I wanted to do something different, I think the part that I had always enjoyed was the explanation and the communication part of it. So, I took that with me into this last job that I had. But the whole time, even during the support world, I was writing blog posts, and I was doing conference talks and, I wrote a book about HTML email, which is incredibly out of date now.

Lynne: That’s the trouble with tech, isn’t it? 

Rachel: But a nice sort of paperweight for your desk, I imagine. 

Mat: If you need to hold up a microphone or lift up a monitor a little bit, it is great for that. 

Rachel: Yes, they’re still handy. 

Lynne: So, tell us what sort of clients you work for. Are they customer service businesses? Are they big, small? 

Mat: That part of it’s pretty new for me right now because as I say, for ten years I’ve been working with Help Scout and they are still my primary client, now I’m contracting back to them. They’re a customer support platform and so they have an audience of, at least part of their audience is customer support people. And obviously that’s where I had a lot of experience in. I was talking to those people on behalf of Help Scout. 

The other clients that I am talking to and working with, a lot of them are either in that sort of customer experience world or online software as a service type companies where being customer centric is a really important part of their business.

Rachel: So, what does that look like? What do you do for your clients on a day-to-day basis? 

Mat: I mean, practically it turns out to be things like newsletters and podcasts and articles. I think the thing that I’m particularly good at is helping those companies figure out, what is it that you’re trying to say to those customers? And then how can we say that in a more engaging and an interesting way because I think in the business-to-business world, the content can be so dull and so generic, and it doesn’t have to be. It can be more fun to read. 

My favourite feedback that I ever get, and this has happened a few times, is people who say, look, I’ve been reading your customer support newsletter for years, I don’t even work in customer support anymore. I’ve moved to another company in another job, but I made sure I resubscribed on with my new email address because I just found it interesting to read. 

Lynne: Oh, that’s so nice. 

Mat: That’s how you’re know you’re doing it right? 

Lynne: Yes.

Rachel: Absolutely. 

Lynne: There is the tip that often companies want to tell you, they want to put in the newsletter what they want to say rather than what the customers want to hear. That’s the big difference, isn’t it? 

Mat: Yes. So, they want to write it in their language instead of the way that people actually talk about the things that they do. 

Lynne: So, do you think that sort of service is for just big businesses, or do you find more affinity with those smaller owner-operator businesses?

Mat: Well, I can say for sure that I know what I prefer working in my various careers. I started in small businesses that have grown into larger businesses, and I know where I prefer to work, which is definitely on the smaller end. But of course, I don’t mean like just solo operated businesses. 

You can have a hundred people and still be a small business, especially in terms of global business. But I find that the big businesses, there’s just less scope to be interesting. The bigger you get, the more constrained that messaging has to be, just because they’re trying to talk to everyone in the world. Therefore, you just can’t be as interesting. So that’s what works for me is definitely the smaller ones. 

Rachel: I love your domain name morehumancontent.com. So, are you busy drawing in regular clients now for that business or do you already have them? How’s it going? 

Mat: We’re sort of right in the middle of finding the right ones. Help Scout work that I can talk about that and maybe I will in a second there. That’s taking up the majority of my time still is delivering that content for them and then I’m in the middle of talking to a bunch of different companies about finding the right, the right pieces that work for them and ideally for me, I would love to find another couple of small companies who are just trying to figure out, how do we talk about what we do and how do we reach those customers? Because I think that’s where I can be most helpful and I’m sure they’re out there. I’ve just got to find the right ones.

Lynne: Yes. 

Rachel: Even though your whole philosophy is being more human and how to do that, are you still infusing AI into it in bits and pieces? 

Mat: I think it’s impossible to avoid even if you wanted to. How could you not be thinking about AI right now? 

Lynne: Yes. 

Mat: But also, I think it’s inevitable that our jobs will involve AI. We probably don’t have to talk about it in the same. We’re in a bit of a bubble right now where everyone is talking about AI all the time, but we’ve been through this before and we don’t have to constantly talk about, oh, what did you use your computer for this week? What, what have you been doing on computers? We’ve got past that. 

Lynne: Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Mat: And I think we will get past that with AI as well. Of course. Yes, of course. You’re using AI. Everybody’s using AI. It’s not interesting. I want to know, what are you doing with it? 

Rachel: Yes. 

Mat: What is the thing that you’re trying to actually show me? So yes, it’s just figuring out where does it make the most sense and how is it going to be helpful to this particular person at this particular moment? We’ll find out once we get the real pricing, once the bubble pops and the investment money comes due, and we figure out where is it practical to still use AI. 

Rachel: How far away is that do you think? 

Mat: Not very far, I don’t think.

Lynne: Oh, no. I feel like the bubbles on the verge of bursting. 

Mat: I mean there’s billions and billions of dollars tied up there, so they’re going to want that money eventually. 

Rachel: Oh God. Okay. 

Lynne: Yes. Do you want to take us through some of your projects and what they involve? Is there a bit of strategy behind it and then you go into the writing? Or how does it work? 

Mat: Well, maybe the most useful one is to talk about the supportive, which is sort of the big project that I’ve been doing for years now, which is sort of a brand of its own within Help Scout, which is because it’s a newsletter, but it’s also articles, but it’s also podcasts and conference talks and videos. The idea there was that we wanted to talk about customer support to customer support people, but just in a different way than they used to. Not so much talking about the mechanics of it or of the software itself, although there is some of that, but talking about like why does this industry of customer service matter and how does it fit into the businesses that those people are working in, and what does it look like, as you say, with AI and the future of customer support?

It’s always at the top of the list of things that people want to automate away, although I don’t think they can. So, I’ve written a lot of newsletters about that, and I gave a talk where I pretended it was 2028 and I was talking about what does this look like now and one where I pretended to have found a secret diary from a customer support person talking about ten years of what it looks like to be in that industry. So just trying to do unexpected ways of talking about the same thing that other people are talking about helping people think about what they do in a new way, especially because for that audience, customer service people, they often not getting a lot of respect or a lot of attention within the business that they work in. So, it’s nice to be able to elevate them a little bit in that way. 

Lynne: Oh, interesting. 

Rachel: If we’re talking like about core customer service strategies, let’s bring that down to freelancer businesses. What works in the terms of a freelancer business is that kind of about really making sure your onboarding is great, so you’re nurturing the customer through that period.

Mat: What is good service? It’s a very broad question. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Mat: So much of it depends on who are your customers and what are they expecting from you and what have you sold them that you’re going to deliver. Because a lot of bad services, really, the thing that they thought they were buying is not what they were buying.

Lynne: Yes. 

Mat: If you’ve ever worked as I have in companies where the salespeople are not necessarily aligned with what the actual product can do. 

Lynne: Yes. 

Mat Patterson: Very challenging. But I think for your audience, for people who are often their own boss and they are the one who’s directly talking to clients – the number one thing that I would say is to think about what your client is actually trying to get done. They’re probably not coming to you because what they really want is a good article. That’s just a thing that they think might help them get what they’re trying to get done. So that might be, I just need more sales, or I’m trying to impress my investors, or I’m trying to convince somebody to do something – that’s actually what they’re trying to do and so, the article is just one way that will potentially get them there.

I think the more you understand about what it is that they’re trying to get done, the more helpful you can be to them. Not just through the content, but also through how you talk about it and, and the questions that you ask them. So that’s where I would invest the time. 

Lynne: Interesting. 

Rachel: I would love to hear, Mat, about your customer service strategies that you use in your own business, things that you are really at the foundation of your business that help you get clients, help you retain clients, that kind of thing.

Mat: I think listening is a skill that probably, it took me way too long to develop, but having been now to over the last ten years, well fifteen years really in two previous jobs, been to a lot of customer support conferences and just hearing people talk about their job and having done the same job myself. So, when I think about how I am going to help those people, or the people that I would like to be clients of mine. As I say, like the main thing is that I understand what is the pain point that they’re actually feeling. That is, they come to you and they might say, I want an article about this thing, which might be the answer, but also might not be. That’s a real customer service support, like tech support trick.

What people ask for is often not what they actually need, it’s just what they think they need because they’ve skipped ahead to what the answer is. So, a lot of the value that you can provide as a service provider is helping them figure out what is actually going to be most useful to you. Let’s take a step back before we jump straight to what the solution is.

Lynne: Yes. 

Mat: The nice thing about that is if you talk to people like that and you ask them questions, everyone likes talking about themselves. They often can solve their own problem just in the conversation that they have with you. They can like, oh, now I get what I actually need is this. Now that you’ve asked me those questions and you’ve made me think about it and clarify it for myself, which is a skill obviously a lot of writers are really great at – here is this big, messy idea. Let me refine that to something that actually then I can look at it and say, oh yeah, that’s what I meant. 

Lynne: Some sort of cohesive link throughout. 

So, do you think with customer centric businesses or customer service, do you think, how much is about communication and how much is about good training of the staff? Of the client facing staff? 

Mat: Well, obviously communication is everything. If you can’t do that actual piece, which is the physical delivery of information from you to the customer, obviously that’s essential. If you can’t do that, it’s going to fall apart. I don’t think that bad service is usually a result of poor training sometimes.

Obviously, it is. I think it’s much more often though; it’s about authority in that if you’ve got a bunch of people working for you in support, the main thing you have to do is make sure that they actually can do for the customer what needs to be done because if you call that insurance company and you are talking to a person on the phone, that person knows what the actual useful thing that they could do would be, right – they know what the answer is, it might be just give them a refund, or it might be just, I’m just going to change that for you. But they so often just do not have the authority to do that. They’re not in a position where they don’t have the tools to do it. They haven’t had the training to do it. They don’t have the authority to press the button that would do the thing that is useful to you. And so, they’re sort of trapped, like there’s nothing they can do that will provide good service because the answer has to come from up top of that business where they have to say, yes, we are going to spend the money to make sure that they can actually do what needs to be done.

So, I think being customer centric as a business comes from the top and if you don’t have the person at the top who cares enough to do that instead of doing something else with the money of the company, you’re not ever going to get great service out the bottom. 

Rachel: That’s so interesting. Is this where I’ve been seeing on LinkedIn, about customer marketing. I was reading something from a US customer marketer who said she felt like customer marketing isn’t really a big thing in Australia. Does that fit into the kind of work that you do as well? 

Mat: Yes. I think it can. It’s one of those, again, one of those terms where a different company’s customer marketing means quite different things, but I do think that the most convincing salesperson you can have is a happy customer.

Rachel: Yes. 

Mat: That person is not constrained by your brand messaging about how they explain what it is that they do. They just go and say, this is what happened and I was trying to do this, and then they came and they helped me do it and you would not be convincing. If you tried to say that yourself doesn’t make sense. But hearing someone who’s actually paid for that service and received the service and is happy, that is like gold. 

And so some companies will try and you can try and buy that from, by paying customers to do it, but it’s never as effective as just that one person who turns up to the industry conference and talks about, oh you know who you should use, you should use this guy because they were super helpful. 

Rachel: The unpaid sales team. 

Mat: Absolute dream. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Lynne: Yes. 

Rachel: Well, we did touch a bit on AI before, but let’s just dive down into it a little bit more. Where do you see it fitting in? What kind of workflows would it work for? 

Mat: In terms of writing or in terms of customer service or both? What do you think?

Rachel: Probably both. 

Mat: So, if we think about people who are writing and communicating, which is also a lot of what support people are doing too, I think generative AI is going to make a lot of people realise how much it matters, that there is a person on the other end and a perspective and an opinion because if anyone, writer or not can just generate an article in thirty seconds, which we can all do now for free, but they’re all using the same three tools, then any company or any person that has an actual thought or an idea or some like consistent perspective on an industry or an area about what matters to them, those are the ones who are going to stand out because you’ll see this person actually believes this thing and they’re a person with their own experience and skill that they’re bringing to it because there’s so much generic content.

This was always a problem in content marketing world, is that if you look up ten top blog posts, they’re basically all the same thing in slightly different orders where every company goes, here’s our top ten list of these products and oh look, ours is at number one. Amazing. 

Lynne: Yes. 

Mat: And like, what is the point of all that?

But now it’s even worse because now you don’t even have to have a content marketing team. You can just have a person press a button and generate that list and they’re all just feeding off each other. So, I think there is going to be incredible value of, now here is a person who has some skill in that area and their perspective and is willing to say something that’s not going to turn up in a million other blog posts.

And just the nature of the way that generative AI works, it will always go to the median, right? That’s how it works, is just generating statistically the most probable sentence to follow the one that you just had, and so people are going to realise how much more interesting it is to have a person’s perspective, even if you don’t agree with them a hundred percent. 

Lynne: It is so generic, isn’t it? 

Mat: It is very boring. It’s just boring and the cheaper it is, the more that will be produced and the less interesting it will become. Something will eventually break in that system, but I think it is going to make people realise, oh, I do miss a person with a voice. 

Lynne: Yes. It’s interesting. I know you’re at the beginning of your business and setting up things. Where do you see the opportunities in this sort of work? Are you doing cold outreach or referrals or relationships or something else? 

Mat: For me right now it is mostly people that I’ve already come across that are already aware. As I just said, I’ve got ten years now of talking about this particular field and standing on stage. 

Lynne: They’ve seen you at conferences age.

Mat: That all helps, right? People know that I have an opinion and I haven’t been shy about sharing that opinion over and over again for the last ten years. So, it is people then who resonate with them. Right. So, what I don’t get is big companies who don’t care about customer service, they have no interest in talking to me because they know what my perspective is. So, it’s sort of self-selecting in that way. 

Lynne: Interesting. 

Rachel: If freelancers out there listening wanted to move into customer focus content, where would you tell them to focus their efforts?

Mat: I think the people who do it best are the ones who genuinely know about that field. Right? So, I think whatever you know about, if your background is in, if you wanted to talk about what is the customer experience in that area, you’re going to be much more convincing and much more interesting than whoever is a generic content producer person who’s just been told to write about this industry because at Help Scout we’ve hired plenty of writers in our time and the best ones are the ones who had some background in that area and who could talk in about, in a much more detailed way, who you could just tell oh yeah, they know what they’re talking about. 

Lynne: So, say you had a background in something like construction writing to go into like customer service with that focus on that construction thing. 

Mat: To talk about, let me go find a company who really cares about, what is the end customer experience of getting this builder to come in and build your house? Because, oh my God, there is so much scope for just tradespeople who have some basic level of competency in customer service which is I think, very often missing. The ones who are – the companies who can do it – everyone loves them. Of course, you’ll get them back for everything because they’re nice to deal with and so there must be scope for, let me find a company who’s good at that and let me talk about how they think about customer service, because I’m always, when I’m trying to hire a tradesperson, I would love to find who is the people who actually are good at this bit. 

I assume you’ve got your building license, you can do the actual work to some degree, and I want to check the references or whatever, but I want the person who’s going to turn up and it’s going to be like a nice experience to have them working in my house for six weeks.

So, content in that area. 

Rachel: That’s a really good point to choose your niche carefully, but say that you are looking, you’re thinking, okay, I want to get some of this work. What kinds of titles would you be looking for on LinkedIn, the types of people to reach out to who might outsource that kind of work?

Mat: So, my particular area, which is online customer service, there’s not a huge number of them. Obviously, all of the companies that build tools for customer support are all the ones that need the most content in that area. So that’s where you would start. There are specialist companies. One is called Supported Content. That’s what they do is they find people who can talk about that area and then they get pitches and they farm it out to different people. 

So, there are a few of those around, not huge numbers of them, but yes, if you went to a broader customer experience world, then the best place to start is probably some of those, communities of customer support and service people like, ElevateCX or CX Accelerator. And there’s a few of these Slack communities where if you kind of hung out in there, you would see what are the needs, what are people talking about that they wish there were answers on? And you can find the companies that are trying to sell into those people, and that’s where you’re going to find most of the work.

Rachel: Great tip. Thank you. 

Lynne: We are getting to the end of the podcast, so we end it now with our fast three questions. Are you ready? 

Mat: Definitely not. 

Rachel: It’s like a pop quiz. It’s very chill.

Mat: All right. I’m ready now. I’m now ready. 

Lynne: Fair enough.

Rachel: Okay. First question. Favourite tools of the trade you can’t live without. 

Mat: Let me give you two.

First one is a piece of software. It’s called Obsidian. Oh, I love it. It’s like a personal wiki sort of thing. Basically, a bunch of text files you can really easily link from one to the other. I just put everything in there, so every piece of writing that I have starts in there, daily notes of what I’m meant to be doing go in there. Quotes that I find, places or reference materials; I put it all in there. So anytime when I go to write something, I just start an Obsidian, and everything’s already linked in there for me, and I can like search and pull stuff together. Love it. 

Rachel: Wow. I haven’t heard of that. Is that like kind of like Notion or Evernote or something like that?

Mat: Sort of, except, it’s just purely plain text, which makes it really – especially if you use an AI tool. I can tell Claude, go look in there for, and it’s find stuff and it will just like, I want to write about this. It can go in there and find here’s six things that you’ve got about that topic, and these are the common themes between them. It’s a real time saver. 

Rachel: Cool.

Lynne: It’s like your personal library. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Mat: Exactly. 

Rachel: And you have another tool as well, you mentioned?

Mat: Yes. It’s this one which I’m holding up. I realise this is video, but it’s called, it’s a little tiny camera. It’s called Osmo Pocket 3, I think, and it’s like a little tiny flip camera that I can use, and I use that for making all the videos. It’s very easy to fit in your pocket, take it outside, and it’s like got a little self-leveling gimbal thing on it. So, it makes it much faster to take quick videos. Love it. 

Lynne: Oh, okay. 

Rachel: Better than a phone. 

Mat: Yes. Higher quality than a phone. And it does much more in terms of you move it around and it keeps it all nice and level. So, I can stick it wherever I need to, and I know I can get a good video out of it. 

Rachel: Cool. Okay.

Lynne: Oh, that sounds great. So, question two is one habit that genuinely saves you time. 

Mat: It’s going to be the same thing again, like that Obsidian. I think that’s – that is genuinely what saves me the most time is, I just know if I always put the notes and the ideas and the middle of the night thing that I think of, I always just put it in the same place and then whenever I need to write something, I know that I’ve got a ton of stuff that I can go through that’s going to give me something to work with rather than a blank page. 

Rachel: That’s good. Okay, our final question. One thing you wish you’d done sooner in your career.

Mat: I would say when I was younger, I was very worried about looking dumb and I never asked for help when I should have. I didn’t ask for clarification. I didn’t ask for someone to help me when I didn’t know what I was doing and it probably took me until I was myself, like managing a team of people that I realised, oh my God, they probably just actually really wanted me to ask so that they could help because that’s how I felt as a manager was I could really help you go ahead in your career or do better in your job or whatever if you just told me what you needed. 

So yes, just ask. You will improve much more quickly. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Mat: And you just look dumb for a second, but you’ll look smarter forever after.

Rachel: Love it.

Lynne: That’s so true, isn’t it? That’s a bit of confidence, isn’t it, to ask a question with the risk of looking stupid. 

Mat: You have to be somewhere that’s safe to do that, I guess and there are some companies where it’s not. But most of the time, especially if you’ve got a good manager, you should just ask.

Lynne: Yes. 

Rachel: Good advice.

Lynne: Wow. Some great advice. So, thank you Mat. It’s great to chat with you and meet you. He’s hoping our listeners will think about that whole area of work, a bit more and rethink about how they can add a human touch to their work. 

Rachel: Absolutely.  

Mat, tell us where we can find you, follow, you, stalk you in the nicest possible way.

Mat: Just down the street near the coffee shops probably where I’m mostly going to be. But if you don’t want to do that, go to morehumancontent.com. You’ll find all my stuff linked from there. Maybe sign up for the newsletter if you want to. Always happy to connect with people there. 

Rachel: Great.

Lynne: Fantastic. Thank you.

Mat: Thank you very much. 

Lynne: Wow. Such a great chat. And thanks to everyone for listening. And don’t forget to leave a rating or review and we’ll see you all again next week. Thanks. 

Rachel: See everybody. Bye. 

Lynne: Bye. 

Credits:

Connect with Mat via: https://morehumancontent.com, https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathewpatterson/ and https://www.helpscout.com/resources/supportive-podcast/ 

Find Lynne www.lynnetestoni.com

Find Rachel www.rachelsmith.com.au

Rachel’s List www.rachelslist.com.au

Thanks (as always) to our sponsors Rounded (www.rounded.com.au), an easy invoicing and accounting solution that helps freelancers run their businesses with confidence. Looking to take advantage of the discount for Rachel’s List Gold Members? Email us at: hello@rachelslist.com.au for the details.

Episode edited by Marker Creative Co www.markercreative.co