Content chief Keshnee Kemp on social media, working with Woolworths and setting up an agency

Rachel Smith: Hello and welcome to The Content Byte, a podcast for freelancers who use their words to make money. I’m Rachel Smith, a freelance journalist, copywriter, and content producer. I’m also the founder of Rachel’s List, a jobs board and community for Australian writers and other creatives. 

Lynne Testoni: I’m Lynne Testoni! I’m a journalist and content writer as well. Rachel and I are your weekly co-hosts, and every week we bring you all kinds of tips, tricks, and some fabulous guests to help you make the most of your freelance business.

Rachel: Hi Lynne, how are you? 

Lynne: I’m really good. Thanks.

Rachel: Look, it’s been a while since we chatted about social media, but I think it’s time we went there again, because there have been some big changes in that whole area, haven’t there? 

Lynne: There has. Algorithms are always changing, and AI is becoming big in this space. I’d love to delve into it again and I’m excited about, our guest today, Keshnee Kemp who has just started her own agency after a successful stint as Head of Content at Woolworths, which is one of our biggest companies. I think it’s in the top ten or top four. 

Rachel: Wow. 

Lynne: She’s had such a varied career, and I think it’s going to be a good chat. 

Rachel: Yes, she’s had some really big jobs, and I think she has a lot to share with us as well. So, shall I read out her bio, and then we’ll get her into the hot seat?

Lynne: Yes, please!

Rachel: Okay. Keshnee Kemp is a content marketing leader with deep expertise in Millennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha. With a background spanning TV, digital and social, she’s led high performing content teams for Australia’s leading brands across retail, lifestyle, beauty, parenting and home. Welcome Keshnee, it’s great to have you!

Keshnee: Hi, ladies, thank you for having me. It’s really good to be chatting with you guys.

Lynne: We’re excited! 

Rachel: We were talking a little bit off air about your background. So great to finally have you on the podcast. But for those of us who are listening, who don’t know you, can you give us a bit of background about your career and how it’s all evolved to this point? 

Keshnee:  For sure. I’ll keep it brief, but I started as an intern in magazines. I lived in Queensland. I just had this dream, I really wanted to work in mags, and I thought if I didn’t go ahead and just make a run for it, and I’d never make it. I moved from the Gold Coast to Sydney, and I lived in a backpackers for a while, until I got employed to work for free, as we must start, fetching bananas and flat whites and all the rest. And then got my first gig as an editorial assistant, became a writer, worked my way up, and then went to television, which was really fun – another way of telling stories and communicating with customers on a different platform. Then I got a phone call for my first editorship, which was Cosmopolitan. I went and did that. Had a baby along the way, went to Who Magazine, promoted into head of digital, and then I moved into Woolies, which I guess it feels like a bit of a departure, but really it was about storytelling in a different format for a different brand. That was my quick career journey. 

Rachel: Your potted career journey.

Lynne: We will talk a bit about it, because you’ve also started up your own agency. So going from a big corporate like Woolworths, and I work there – it’s a big company, to starting your own agency. It’s such a big step. What was your thinking behind it?

Keshnee: I was at Woolies for five years, and I grew the team from five to twenty-six and we launched all these channels, and we did all the scary things to be honest and I absolutely love Woolies. I love the people there; I loved my team. I felt very blessed to be a part of that, to be honest. It was such great training, but I’d done all the scary stuff, and I was a bit bored. I didn’t want to become complacent. I feel too young to be bored. I felt, if not now, when. So, I decided I’ll take all the bits that I’ve known as well as learned, as well as the bits that I think are annoying working with agencies, and I’ll make one myself.

Rachel: Some of the journalists that we’ve had on the podcast, or know personally have worked in media, but then they’ve also gone client side. What are the big differences between them? 

Keshnee: Look it’s hard to say, because I feel like my experience as an agency versus agencies I’ve experienced, it shapes you differently when you’ve come from media background, you’ve come from actual platform background. That’s very different. It’s almost like, there’s three, right? There’s media is a traditional form, print, TV, etc. Then there’s brand side, and then there’s agency side. They’re all quite different. Coming from media into a brand is, I feel like media people, and I brought a lot of media people into Woolies as well. We have this level of grittiness, like the underdog needs to get the number, never had much budget. The content has to be very good otherwise, it won’t work. And so, when you come into a business like Woolworth, you’ve got these tools of how to make the most of very little, and you have to have those fundamental storytelling qualities to make it work. I felt like my training prepped me really well for Woolies, and then Woolies shaped me again to prep me for agency if that makes sense. I’ve learnt all the corporate side. I learnt how to push things through engagement with stakeholders in a risk adverse business. I learnt how to have seventeen meetings to get something over the line, all of those things I would never have had before.

Lynne: It’s an interesting thing, and particularly at Woolies, which is a bit slow moving sometimes. How do you navigate that pressure now you’re in charge of your own agency, to be always ahead in a world that moves so fast.

Keshnee:  I kind of love it, to be honest. I love the pressure of it. I think it’s really fun. The scariest thing I’ve ever had to do when looking back, is being in a control room for live television and news breaking, and you’re in control, and the script that you’re saying in the ear of the host is what they’re saying on national television. That’s real stress and so, when I think about the pressure to be first, I actually find that quite exciting, exhilarating. I like that pressure. I also think part of me knows that if you resist, and you don’t lean into have that a little bit of competition about you, it’s really hard to be at the top of your game and social because it’s changing all the time. If you don’t like speed, and you don’t like that, it’s probably not the industry for you from a content perspective, because customers aren’t very forgiving. Audiences won’t forgive you for being three days late, they’ll just go somewhere else.

Lynne: So interesting. We’re seeing a lot of journalists leaving media and going into marketing and content. And you said you had quite a few journalists in your team. What sort of skills do you think they bring?

Keshnee:  Oh, I love and it’s such a passion point of mine of bringing journos into marketing, because storytelling, definitely the words been overused, but it’s the fundamental of a good strategy, I think. And so, a lot of journos who can derive something beautiful out of pretty much anything. Journo’s can do that – you can turn a basic strategy into an exceptional strategy. I think that the foundational skills of journalists, of creatives, are really wonderful, quite unicorn skills in marketing. And while they may not, or they may, but depending on your experience, have the strategic sense, I think that’s trainable. What isn’t trainable is journalistic sensibility for everyone I don’t think. I think it’s a wonderful combination, really rare, to have a strategic brain and a creative brain in content. It makes a wonderful marketer.

Rachel: I love that. Talk to us about your agency. What you do, how it’s structured and all of that. 

Keshnee: There’s a couple of different parts of the agency. One is that we do social media marketing for clients, we’ve got a mix of different clients, and basically, we look after their content creation strategy and their paid ads and its pretty much traditional agency sense in that way, except that the link the team is super lean. I don’t believe in stacking or layers, etc. We’ve just got rather than an account manager, it’s really a Head of Content who also manages the account, and then you’ve got a paid performance lead. It’s pretty straightforward. And then on the other side of it, I consult directly into businesses to help them either drive performance within their own team, uplift capabilities within their own teams, or build their strategies that will work. So that’s the service they offer as well. And then I also do a bit of speaking at events, which I really love. I really love being with people and being able to feed off energy in an audience and in the crowd. So traditional agency, except consulting, is part of it as well.

Rachel: So interesting. I know that one of the biggest, toughest things about having an agency is having that strong team, and you obviously have a very lean model. Does that mean that you have key contributors, a kind of a pool that you pull from? Or are you always looking for new people for that?

Keshnee: It just depends on the client needs. I like to have a pool of people I’ve worked with over the years or have a connection to because at the end of the day I’ve got really high expectations, and I want to make sure that every single thing that a client gets is what I would want to put in front of them. The way I currently works is I have contracted team members, which really works in scale, because we’re growing really fast, and so we want to make sure that it’s right for them and right for us and gives them flexibility. And then also freelance on some creative so I have some preferred creatives that we just plug in for work, and that that tends to work for us. So, it’s quite consistent. We’ve worked together a long time or even the same client, etc. But I do use both.

Lynne: It’s an interesting so much is about relationships, isn’t it?

Keshnee: So much is about relationships. All of the clients I’ve got at the moment are relationships. It’s from someone having worked with me before or previously. And I think as part of that they trust that the talent I would also use would be people that I felt really comfortable with too. When it’s your name, you want to make sure you’re doing the absolute best work possible. So, but relationships are absolutely key.

Rachel: Does that mean that you’re not having to pitch for work as much? It’s just coming to you at this stage.

Keshnee: That’s been so far. I mean, I launched in June, right? And I’ve got a lot on the plate at the moment, so I haven’t had to pitch for any work. But that’s not saying I won’t have to in the future. So far, I haven’t. It’s been really wonderful to just, to come quite organically, naturally and quite quickly, and a really good variety as well, which is really fun. But I think I’m sure eventually I will have to pitch for work. And that just is what it is, but the moment, not yet.

Lynne: I’d love for you to talk to us about social media, because I know you did a presentation. I follow your LinkedIn. It’s great LinkedIn, and you were in Perth, and you did a big presentation on social media. What are you seeing in that space?

Keshnee:  It’s a really fun time and social, I think. Seeing a lot of, I think first and foremost, the teams who are producing on social at the moment are the most stretched, challenged teams. The environment is changing so fast, and there’s a lot of pressure, downward pressure coming from leaders on, faster, more with less. That same experience which is not a fun time. And so, lots of marketers are struggling to figure out, what do I actually where I spend my time? What channels are worth it? There is a lot of pressure, I would say, just first and foremost, to acknowledge for teams. It’s a really changing space. I think that AI is an enabler more than anything, and teams are being asked to use it, which I really love that fact. I think AI should be used to enable creativity. So do the boring shit that you don’t want to or need to do, and then let your creative part of the brain do the exceptional stuff. I think they’re just generally socially, there’s a desire for trust and a lack of trust towards big businesses. And so, customers and audiences are really seeking authenticity, I think, which has become quite a bit of a token word. So, there’s a lot of pressures. It feels like pressures down, pressures from audiences up, and then just team members themselves, trying to manage all the tools that are available to them. I think what a lot of teams need to do at the moment is just go back to basics in a really simple strategy, a really simple channel strategy. Why we’re on the platforms, we’re on, what we should be acting like on those platforms, and then starting to evolve with the platforms as they change, if that makes sense. But I think it’s a really wild time, and the best thing teams can do is try to chill out and simplify. I think at the moment.

Rachel:  Interesting, what you say about really figuring out, what do we want to sound like on social. Some of the best corporate stuff that you see are social media teams going off piece a little bit and being really funny about something, or news jacking something in a funny way that brings you back to the brand. Do you help with that strategy as well?

Keshnee: For sure. I do think it’s really important to your point around brand tone. Of defining what you are and what you aren’t, because it’s a very slippery slope. If you’re trend jacking all the time, you’re doing it wrong. It should be the best brands should be following trends very rarely, and they should have a really strong, differentiated voice, so that whenever you’re on their platform, you’re on their platform. I think a lot of brands have made the mistake of chasing too many influencers, chasing too many trends, and now they look all the same, which is a real shame. So yes, one of the things we do is just again, foundationally, help them get back to what’s the actual role of the brand, and what are we trying to achieve? What’s our objective? Is it commercial? Is it awareness, and then thinking about the way the brand shows up. Then you can start to in your tone, devise how you’re funny and how you’re self-deprecating and how you’re what you will and won’t comment on, or how you support customers or not. We definitely did that at Woolies, but it’s really important – strategy is the most important thing. And before I joined Woolies, I probably wouldn’t have said that, but it is really important for brands. Otherwise, you all just look the same.

Rachel:  Do you think corporates are still a little bit scared by social they’re not sure how to balance the messaging and also, the turnaround times you want. It is a full-time job, really, isn’t it, and so many companies do not treat it like that at all. What are your thoughts on that?

Keshnee: For sure, there’s a lot of businesses that are risk adverse and they have a right to be. It’s a gift to be given the keys to a brand like Woolworths or a brand like, whatever – it’s a real privilege. So yes, a lot of businesses are quite nervous, and a lot of team members are struggling with getting their leaders to have a go and to take their ideas seriously. And that’s one of the workshops I’ve been doing with team members, is how to actually build a strategy that might impress stakeholders to give you a go. 

When we launched Tiktok at Woolies, we hadn’t done it before like that. That was two and a half three years ago, I think and that was quite nerve wracking for a lot of people, understandably. But building the foundation, the data. Why should we even be there in the first place because you can’t have any change on a hunch or a gut feeling, you’re probably right, but you better back up by data. I think a lot of stakeholders react well to data. They should if they’re commercially minded. There’s this data is why we should be there, this is the role our brand can play there for our customers, and these are the gaps we’re missing. If we’re not present on these social platforms, we’re missing our customer base. You can’t afford to not be where your customers are. That’s not a great commercial choice. I think a lot of businesses are nervous, they will get there. It’s just on the team of taking them on the right journey to being able to take a calculated risk, if it feels like a risk, at least it’s calculated.

Rachel: I’d love to kind of divert a little bit and ask you what mistakes you see brands making on social. I think that could be interesting.

Keshnee:  My biggest bug bear is that copying, just completely copy pasting what other brands do, because it worked in the US, or it works somewhere else. It looks exactly like everybody else. There’s a brand, I won’t mention the name, but I really love them in Australia, and they’re a fantastic brand, but they have just completely flooded their own platforms with influencers. And the point of influence right, is that they’re fantastic, but the point is that you’re using an influencer to reach their audience so that you’re kind of getting street cred through their audience. Lot of brands publish influencers all over their own brand platform, so the brand is kind of somewhere behind all of that content, but you can’t really see it. So that’s one of my bug bears, is understanding the role of why you’re leveraging these channels, and not completely diluting your brand to the point that customers can’t tell that they’re even on your brand platform. That’s annoying. I think trend jacking – deciding when is the right time for a lot of brands like that Coldplay meme incident, just was not one to play in. You shouldn’t have been the one to play in.

Rachel:  But so many did.

Keshnee:  So many did, and some probably played fast, and it made sense to their brand. Some, I feel like there is absolutely no point to be there and actually, is detrimental. Pick your space.

Lynne:  The Taylor and Travis engagement is another one that everyone’s jumping on. 

Keshnee: It’s not for everyone, and it doesn’t actually do anything for your brand. You really have to think about what the outcome is for the brand. And if you can’t say it in an elevator pitch, just don’t go there. You should be good enough creatively to think of another way or match the right trend. But I struggle with that. I think we’ve got a little bit too excited about virality, that we’ve just become a little lazy.

Lynne: It’s interesting. So, you use some freelancers. What are the skills you feel are important for freelance writers and the freelancers you use. Obviously, it’s putting words together, but what else do they need?

Keshnee:  Look I think freelancers now need to be really aware of what’s happening on the platforms – actually be really aware of what’s performing, and it could be just sign up to newsletters of people you’re influenced by, or you believe, have something to say. Just know what is happening. If the word limits are changing, basic stuff like that, or all of a sudden, there’s this trend that long form is working on these new platforms. The more you understand all of that stuff, the easier pitches will become, because you’ll be fixing a problem for the client without them having to ask you for it. 

I would suggest, stay on top of whatever field you’re in and I would say, don’t be resistant to change and thinking that your patch won’t change. Everything will change. If you’re traditionally long form writer, and you’ve always written for print and print is diminishing, that will change, right? So, acknowledge that and use your skills and evolve it into other ways. Being resistant is like a slow death. It’s just not a great idea. So lean in and embrace it. And where you feel uncomfortable, that’s where you should be leaning. Where it feels like, oh, I don’t know this, lean harder. Lean into the pain, because it’s what will actually be your future. You have to understand it and be okay with it. Come to peace with it. It’s changing. The world is changing. Use your skills in new ways. 

Rachel:  I think there are a lot of freelancers out there who are kind of in limbo at the moment. They’re not sure about how much to use AI. They’re not sure about how much they need to upskill or be transparent about all of that and what the future of content is. What are your thoughts on that? What do you want your freelancers to be transparent about? Are you happy when they say, hey, I know how to repurpose all this social content using these three great AI tools that I’ve trained up in. Or what do you want and what do you not want to see?

Keshnee: That’s a really interesting question. I think, when you’re working with a client, they’re always going to have commercial in mind, right? So, if you’re spending a quarter of your time because you’re using AI, and you tell them that you probably will be paid a quarter of the amount, right? I think it can be used for the right purposes. I think I love AI for a lot of reasons. I like it because it simplifies things that is already my work that would have taken me ten years to do, super simplified. I can use my time and money elsewhere. I think if it’s writing specifically, I would say, I think you should disclose if you’re using it in research. I would say, just like anything, you check your sources. You need to make sure that it’s getting it right if you’re if you’re leveraging research, which is really simple to do. You take it off the platform and make sure the source is right. So definitely use it in research. Don’t use it in writing, as in don’t let it craft your piece, because that is your job. And I think, let it simplify so your piece can be better. Let it take away a lot of the cutting down, perhaps, but never trust it as the final as the writer, as the final editor. It makes mistakes all the time, and it should be you keep that in mind all the time. 

From a creative perspective, I would say, know what tools you can use to simplify the edit process. If you’re a creative freelancer and you’re creating video, there are so many tools now that can help you simplify the process and editing. Use those, that’s no problem. The agency doesn’t give a shit where you edited it. They care on what you created. The other thing I just say to be aware of is the disclosure and privacy laws, and laws within each of the platforms. So, they don’t have a responsibility to make sure your content is correct. That’s your responsibility. Some of the editing platforms, they have the rights to your content. You’ve got to read the T’s and C’s. So, you can’t do the work for the client knowing that the world has the rights for the content, because it should be the client’s content. So just be savvy I would say, on what those platforms can do for you, and just use it in a way that enables you to do what you do best, rather than taking away what you do best, because then you’re going to sound like everybody else who’s using AI?

Lynne: It’s so interesting. Well, that’s a good lead into our question that we ask all our guests, which is about their favourite tech tips or tools, all the things that they would be lost without. What are yours?

Keshnee: I really love the social platforms, purely for social listening, other than seeing what’s happening. Social listening out of the platforms is the most up to date data source you can possibly get most up to date. You can have all the packs and research and all the commercial information in the world, but to know how society is thinking, feeling, reacting right this minute – social media. I love social for that reason. And I love AI. I think it’s fantastic. I embrace it – I use different ones. I think being able to take data from multiple different sources, so say, in platform data on performance right, and you run it through a system like AI to simplify the data and find, unique learnings, etc, is brilliant. So great. And then you can apply your creativity and experience on top of that. I definitely love that. 

What else? Look I think also a lot of the platform, social platforms, now have in platform editing. So, if you’re a freelancer or an agency or an individual creator, it’s never been easier to market yourself. It doesn’t take hundreds and thousands of dollars. You can do it in the platforms now. You need to give it the time and love and passion all those things. But it’s democratised creativity in a way that means that it’s accessible for everyone, and everyone can do it and promote themselves. So, they’re my favourite kind of go to’s, which is pretty simple.

Rachel: Amazing. Well, thank you, Keshnee, for such a great chat. Tell us where our audience can find you, connect with you sign up to your newsletter all of that.

Keshnee:  Thanks, Rachel. I think my newsletter is on my LinkedIn. So Keshnee – unique name, which is not hard to forget. 

Lynne: It’s great having a unique name.

Keshnee: You can click and sign up to the newsletter. And really what I do there is the weekly update of everything that’s happening social and marketing so, it’s a helpful resource. Otherwise, I’m on Instagram as well – August One and Keshnee.

Lynne:  Fantastic. Wow. Thanks so much for great chat. We’ll put all those links in the show notes so you can connect with Keshnee and also, we’ll put a transcript in the show notes as well, and we’ll be back again next week. Thank you, Keshnee!

Keshnee: Thank you, thanks for having me.

Rachel:  Thanks guys. Bye.

---

Credits:

Connect with Keshnee through the following ways: 

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/keshnee/
Keshnee’s agency www.augustone.com.au

Find Lynne www.lynnetestoni.com 

Find Rachel www.rachelsmith.com.au 

Rachel’s List www.rachelslist.com.au 

If you have questions you’d like us to answer in our next Q&A episode, just send them here.

Thanks (as always) to our sponsors Rounded (www.rounded.com.au), an easy invoicing and accounting solution that helps freelancers run their businesses with confidence. Looking to take advantage of the discount for Rachel’s List Gold Members? Email us at: hello@rachelslist.com.au for the details.

Episode edited by Marker Creative Co www.markercreative.co